Talk Heathen 03.24 with Eric Murphy & Jenna Belk

you [Applause] come on so we've got this really cool guest I don't want to bring on I know your all righty Jenny ready I'm Eric Murphy and this is Jenna Belk hi everyone it is June 16th 2019 it's Father's Day and I'm so happy that we're all here together it's season 3 episode 24 and I've just oh my goodness Jenna thank you so much for coming out yeah it's the least I could do so let's see I know you've been on the nonprofits you were on the Atheist Experience last week and you get to be on with me so I think you might be going backwards but no I'm just dancing around Oh dig it dig it um so I kind of wanted to introduce the audience to you who are you um well now I'm officially the newest co-host addition to the Atheist experience so that feels really cool hmm and I'm a guest host I guess on a bunch of other things so just I kind of fill in where I can and try to talk about things that I think can help well I'm really happy to see you here I know that I was here when you first came to the ACA and you were a baby yeah I kind of adopted that need one a couple on the second his sexuality shows that I've been on Evan yeah they hold the baby atheist it's it's it's amazing because that was not too long ago no less than a year about six months actually and the wonderful thing is is every time I see you you're like a sponge I mean every time we're talking you just you just want to know more you want to explore and you are not afraid of facing down those things that might make you uncomfortable or might challenge your preconceived notions about things and it's admirable it's something that I absolutely love and I I really really hope that people can get that when they see you on the air that it's not just you being the person who needs to know everything going you know starting out but it's about kind of confronting your own you know what you don't know and in learning to get I think that people can relate to that and it's awesome yeah rave and it's interesting cuz it's not like becoming an atheist was like an ending point right becoming an atheist was like a starting point I I realized that I had to redress how my brain works and how to live my life and I've literally been obsessed with learning the past six months because I've become almost addicted to that discovery of being wrong cuz I've been wrong about so many things now that I'm like seeking out okay okay okay let's find what else am I wrong about let's let's talk about something to you guys and it's just it's fascinating to me it's fun and and it's it's addressing that discomfort we've talked about that discomfort quite a bit right and I like I said I could just gush over yeah I'm I'm really happy that you're here I do want to get a couple of announcements out before we dive right in I missed everybody I'm so happy to be back on the air I'm back at the ACA from my medical leave and I'm ready to take on the world and I'm just I'm excited and I just want to say thank you to everybody who helped support me through that I also want to say Happy Father's Day to the fathers who who deserve it yeah to my grandpa to the father I wish I would have had my whole life but I get to have now Jeff happy Father's Day love you and I I do have a couple things um I'm not gonna be here next weekend I am going to be in Tennessee actually doing the ask and Wonder event at the Johnson fellowship yeah from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. I believe it's free and people can check that out by going to ask and wonder comm I'm gonna be doing a roundtable against two presuppositional apologize oh my god I hate myself it does seem fun and I'm excited to do it as always we're gonna be thinking our top five patrons right around the middle of the show so if you would like to become a patron we don't have major donors our patreon is slash talk even to me that's slash talk heathen to me every dollar counts and we really deeply sincerely appreciate it because it empowers us to keep doing what we're doing we do not have full lines but we're getting close if you're a theist caller we're gonna guess that we're gonna have preference for you you can always call five one two six eight six is zero two seven nine that's five one two six eight six zero two seven nine it was there anything else before we jumped in um did you want to talk about just kind of the different dynamic yeah just we started talking a little bit before the show about why I'm here and I've been reading the comments on the Atheist experience and a couple of people are kind of wondering you know what I have to bring because I'm not as educated or as informed as some of the as every single host that I've seen on any of these shows so far but the I think that what it is is that I am still so fresh in the old way of thinking and understand this was doing dynamic enough to still relate yeah without fully understanding the you know the actual rules and of logic yet you know it's that you don't have to be fully educated to get it you know and and and you have to dive in it's it's it's funny I was getting the same kind of comments under the my last debate because it was my first I know public debate and people are saying you you don't start out perfect you have to start somewhere and the fact that you're going on this journey publicly is unbelievable I'm really really glad you're doing it so yeah alright so who did you want to talk to you first what sit up Chad let's talk to Chad Chad helped us test the lines before the show Chad you're live with Eric and Jenna how are you doing oh great wonderful thank you for taking my call oh yeah all right okay I was wondering how Jenna got the position that cuz I'm interested in hosting a show in one day wow I'm just kidding okay okay there's plenty of room on the Internet I mean you can start on you can start up on YouTube yeah that's true I've seen it I want it I want to thank you guys so much first of all for encouraging critical thinking and encouraging people to think because what religion does is makes people not really question anything about to religion literally read the book and do what the book says and believe it hundred-percent and despite all the flaws all the the immoral stuff and most books so I want to thank you so much for opening people's eyes and to thinking whether you know they keep believing in that that's a different story whether the religion is beneficial or not that's a different story but at least there's one article so thank you guys yeah well you got it we got a seat yeah we have a brain yeah we got a thing so what did you want to talk about so today I want to talk about bias and those you know atheists and theists and the reason why I'm saying this because usually the conversation goes this way gives me a reason to believe that the regard otherwise by default you know there's no God you know you have to you have the burden of proof and which is true I agree with you guys however you know there are signs there are things that you might want to think about to consider to not to make a conclusion there is God but to have doubt whether or not those gods actually exist and I'm not talking about the classical God you know there are brahim of God or Ibraham religions I'm talking about I'm not sure see that's familiar with the Sumerian civilization I mean I've studied some but why don't you disk be your god to us so we don't talk past you okay so I doesn't mean I'm ripping this God I'm just just to be clear and now I think I'm saying I have a God that I worship and I love and he does the miracles and there's good piece for me no and the reason why I say wait yes is this a God that you believe in okay so I believe there are gods that exists or existed or they still exist okay how do you know okay so look at this that's why I brought the Sumerian civilization so when you look at the tablets that they found archaeologists found found and they translated the the language and what they're talking about there is evidence that the those people whoever they claim that there were God existed sure so you might say okay so I'm just I want to make sure that I'm following you if I buried a copy of spider-man the comic book and correct brought it back up you know two thousand years from now three five thousand years from now would that mean that Spiderman existed as a real deity in this world you know it's a great point however when you start from that you know the Sumerian civilization of this tablet and you go to the Abrahamic religions and you make a comparison and we see the differences between the two or similarities you see there is a smoking gun wait a second wait a second where's the smoking gun what smoking good yeah okay okay so I understand that you know various opponents of believers that make the religion to correct over the gods – I understand that and I'm with you hundred percent okay like I said the problem with you guys is that show me like I said are you trying to do here is it is you say a goodly evidence so no matter what evidence you get or no matter what what the things that is what – right you dismissed that we haven't given us any hold on chat no no I'll tell you why it's I'm holding a mug okay I'm holding a mug right here I'm if you're not watching I am holding a mug this mug says godless bitches on there's more evidence for this mug than there is for your God currently I'm asking I'm not asking for good evidence even I'm asking for evidence at all something start with and then from there move on to you start with why do you why do you Chad believe that there are gods just right there okay okay so like I said it's a but the problem you guys having is that and you won't answer my question so you just miss everything anything I'm trying to ask you a question and you won't give me an answer instead you're gonna give me a defensive response about how I'm not listening when I'm trying to ask you a question okay yeah I'm not saying you're not listen at all what I'm saying is you're biased by the this you're dismissing okay so there's the thing I'm bringing up an example of quote-unquote gods that you know archeologists found there existed and you're dismissing all the idea saying that that's a very book of spider-man somewhere for thousands of years and as someone finds it doesn't mean that's it that's a god they're not right so what happened there was he what he was trying to predict where you were going with that he saw where you were going and he was trying to pretend the conversation because we're on such a short show when we're trying to get to as many callers as we can and so he's trying to help kind of get to the point really quickly he wasn't trying to dismiss you so this is this is where let's back up just a little bit and just just let's start from why why do you believe that gods exist let's just start right there and then we can take your answer and then we'll dissect it and try to figure out what's going on and and and to be clear I want to add to add on to that Chad the reason I did that she's absolutely right is the the cutting forward piece was the logic that you just used was poor logic and I showed you an example by using the exact same logic with Spiderman to show you that it's not a good methodology of getting to know what is true that is not some merrily dismissing for bad reasons if it should be dismissed because it's bad reasoning then it should be dismissed and you should want that too don't you want to know what's true Chad absolutely okay so then why would you be upset when you find out that you were using bad logic that should be helpful okay so go ahead and tell us why you believe that those guys existed okay like I said I suggest okay even if it's not about you know we wanted to believe that they exist or so I'm putting out the possibility that they do exist why do you believe that okay okay yes third question so so you said you said first of all you said your god it's not my god okay I said why do you believe that any gods exist okay so like I said do some research I'm asking you yes I did some research right so I could go in Google God and come up with 50,000 different answers so I'd like to know why you believe what you believe so I'd like to know not what Google tells me not what other people tell me I'd like to know directly from you why do you believe that any gods exist do they exist are you saying they don't exist there's a possibility that those gods that they were mentioning existed there is a possibility yes so is there a possibility that Peter Pan could exist I'm actually being very serious right like I said it's okay I've been trying I've been doing research isn't for months years I mean I've been doing research that's why I've decided to get down to the point and figure out why do you believe that any gods exist and if you say it's possible well I'm gonna say okay well I found that it's possible that Peter Pan could exist but okay but after deciding that I wanted that to be true and doing a little bit of research I found that I had no reason to believe that he does but I can't prove that he doesn't so I'm not gonna go there so why do you okay so let me ask you this thousand years ago let's say now we can identify snow right we can identify it scientifically we can reach and we can look for and how to identify it years ago snow now snail snail I thought you were talking about the olfactory sense I don't know what that has to do with God or any it might be an example okay I'm sorry to make a point so you smell something right you smell perfume smells so so then now you could prove in this era with science you could prove that that's not exist hmm I mean maybe yeah yeah these smell exists by sampling and asking other people hey do you smell something do you smell something you smell something right we know that the yeah existence of part of particles in the air but can I prove that I'm smelling the same thing that Eric is smelling well maybe yeah that's kind of a different that's a different rabbit hole that we I'd rather not go down if we don't okay fair enough but Chad go on okay so we can prove that things are smelly because they're smelly smells and we can test them and we can find the existence of the particulates that that are creating the smelly smell and we can test for the existence of that particulate matter so we take a group of people let's say 10 people when they smell and they describe how what they smell and I could you know they can they can describe it you know musty were smell good good smell smells good or not and I all the things that type of things and then you have a scientist that comes with and analyzes the particles and confirms that the smell is this or this is that that based on pattern and based on what they find any year let's say okay this is this is today so if we go back thousand years from now and you have a group of people this 10 people would say smelling the same thing that could say that's a good point that could agree or none of them could agree that yes there's no something but there's no science that backs this up they could not prove it today there you go well so I go on what's your point here okay the point is the smell exists whether or not the size concerns it so how do you know that the smell didn't stop existing well and even even there I kind of see where he's where he's going you can get in your car Jenna and not know how your car works but be able to drive it here but if I wanted to know how it worked then I could find out I'm saying this is something you know and I can't find out I can't find I can find pieces of my car to figure out how my car works and you can also go to where it can get shown right I can learn a load so how can we learn about the existence of your god Chad and I'm saying you because I really don't okay so you think that you think that gods exist and they're assholes you don't well well there's a possibility they do exist in that way and you know if let's say take the Bible and that shouldn't take the Bible as face value I would never do that and I never believed in any religion by the way just as we are what I'm saying is it possible the possibility of this drug God exists okay okay how do you know I didn't finish my thoughts with the example I used okay so so you're talking about smells they didn't know how smell worked but they could agree that a smell was there keep going correct so now let's take very religion as you know millions of billions of people talk about corner close to the Holy Spirit was with them or whatever it is right and we could dismiss all those people right and say you're insane okay what you were taught when you were young from your parents now you're just you're repeating that so so we dismiss it and you say no I'm not gonna believe whatever you say right and what I'm saying is from that from the sample of the ten people you got nine people that say oh you know perhaps there is something there and I feel the spirit I feel this and this isn't that okay and more and more people we talk about billions and billions of people do you think those billions of people they just following yes you keep talking about how many billions of people believe this do you think that that has any bearing on whether or not it's true would you agree and would you agree that in that there are holy text texts that have described things that we know and have well documented as mental illness absolutely okay fantastic then I think we found an example that works very well within your framework is there anything else that you'd like to add the second said I wish you know you better just just consider looking for the evidence and call us back when you got it yep let us know yep thank you oh you're amazing I think you are too this is fun Alex Iowa hi know you're talking to Eric and Jenna hello so will you hear us I can can you yes yes you were coming in a little low but I think you're fine now what would you like to talk about today right um what'd I say I just I wanted to talk about the relationship between kind of the atheist skeptical scientific community and the religious community cool which is yeah which is community I kind of feel like I'm a person that lives in both of those worlds so uh you know I'm a religious person and I have been all my life at the same time I also you know em real follower of science and believe in scientific literacy and critical thinking and and you know okay amazed at some of it and amazed at some of the things that people believe and read off the internet come on please exactly yeah yeah yeah so and I and I just the past you know five to ten years but that relationship just seems to just blown up and become a lot more contentious and I was like thinking through why and I think a lot of the blame for that follows a lot more on the theists Christian side than it does the other side so what about about the relationship or my religious beliefs what are your religious beliefs well before we dive right into it it sounded like he was gonna make a point about the relationships between oh I'm sorry yeah yeah yeah that's fine and like I said it's just I I think a lot of that falls on the theists side just because you know as a whole or maybe not as a whole but the loudest members of that community have not done a very good job at promoting scientific literacy in fact they've done their best to suppress it hey Alan we have him yes I just wanted to tell you I'm taking a look at the live chat and there everybody is rooting for you it sounds like you're a little nervous take a breath that's okay everyone here is happy that you've called in and the comments that I'm getting are dude it's okay take a breath you're good we're happy we're good thank you I promise yeah I've never really uh called well thank you into anything like this before yeah so no no no sweat we're not we're not mean to be try not to be but right yeah so you were saying that I'm sorry that I cut you off but you it sounds it sounded to me like you were saying that there's this contentious relationship between Christians and atheists or religious people and atheists and you're seeing more fault kind of on the religious side because they're not really promoting scientific skepticism and promoting you know the tools that cause people to explore the universe around them and that's kind of the last that I got from what you were saying yeah and then in addition to that um we also have not done a very good job at at living out the ideals that we're supposed to live out we haven't done a good job at ensuring that people who are in need are cared for and we haven't done a good job that kind of you know minding our own business and taking care of ourselves first and so early what your beliefs were because it kind of sounds like you're going somewhere and it's like when you say something like we're not acting the way that we're supposed to I wonder why you say that I wonder how are we supposed to act yeah that's why I was like what do you believe because I I'm just trying to kind of get where you're coming from yeah sure you know I give us give us a meat to chew in look to you you've set up the stage we're ready now we're ready to engage with you yeah as I've spent more time and doing more digging into what it actually meant to be a religious person and and specifically for my religion it meant you know trying to actually live out what the Bible says you're supposed to do there's I can't remember who it is but there's Rob Bell I think his name is headed teaching but that basically said that some of the original Jews they would find a rabbi and they would follow him and their job was to do their best to be like their rabbi too and so the application is that we're really supposed to as Christians just do our best to live the way Christ would and this is and some of the most part Alex this is starting to sound like a sermon we're sorry we're wanting to engage with you but you're not asking us any questions or giving us any statements that we can bounce back with you you gotta help here okay yeah sorry anyway my whole point is just that that's that's what I try to do you know like I try not to mix politics with religion that sort of thing just because that's what I feel like I'm supposed to do so those are kind of my personal beliefs there's like I should really be minding my own business I should be doing my best to take care of the people around me just because that's what I believe he would have done and I don't see the church in America especially doing that what I see is is a lot of argumentative behavior right and you're completely right and it's frustrating and what this is just starting to sound like a like you're wondering if you're doing the right thing or talking about the thing this might not be the right platform or show for this kind of conversation this is more of something quick real quick before well when I think about what I'm supposed to do what am I supposed to do and how I used to think about it and how I think about it now and I used to be a Catholic I used to think about well Who am I going to ask to tell me what I'm supposed to do and so I'm spending my entire life seeking out other people that are supposed to be the perfect example of what I'm supposed to be and I found out that I'm not going to find that because there is no perfect person there is no perfect example of who I'm supposed to be I have to find that out myself so when I think about anything that I'm supposed to do when it comes to anything like for example minding your own business I'm not exactly minding my own business right now you know I'm reaching out to people and I'm help trying to help people I'm trying to have conversations I'm trying to influence change I'm not exactly minding my own business is minding your own business necessarily the only way to be well sometimes yeah and sometimes no it just kind of depends so it's up to you ultimately to decide what you're supposed to do mm-hmm does that make sense that makes sense it does absolutely yeah helpful I guess that there's it is yeah I guess that there's a question that I would pose to the two of you then is if the conversation has turned it seems to me of less from a question of does that exist or does God not exist to to a bunch of people on both sides just trying to like shout each other down and and and force each each other to convert one way or the other and it seems to me that that as long as everybody was just you know people could kind of go to their churches and believe what they wanted to believe and not oppress anybody with their beliefs and people who didn't believe anything it could not believe anything that was fine and but now we now racist uncle bill that you only had to deal with to twice a year for the holidays has the internet and has been let loose on the world and everybody's crazy Uncle Bill and racist Uncle Bill is and it's it's terrifying like I totally I totally get it I I think the best way to approach that though is to recognize that toxicity's been there we're just learning as a society how to deal with it now that we can't turn our heads away and ignore it and that's why we're here on this show and trying to have these calm respectful conversations is because we're sick of it too totally man mm-hmm so I want to talk how about how about on your end you promote that on our end we'll promote it and we'll try and make this world a better place from both sides that makes sense do you think there's still a place where both of those people can go back to coexisting only it depends as person-to-person I think but I really hope so we have we've got a lot of work to do and we have to share this world together we can't agree on every last thing before we're ready to have be neighbors we can disagree on things here's the difference the difference is there are organizations and I think you and I would probably agree that we can take a look at horrible what did the scathing atheist call them rape cabal the Catholic Church that they there are organizations that are actively hiding child predators right and preventing them from coming to justice right we have organizations where there these there are these pastors that are standing up and saying oh I can heal you if you give me all of your money there are people who are taking advantage of you know people who are on a fixed income the the poorest of Mazhar being taken advantage of by prosperity gospel crud and while we do have to live and work together when we see injustice when we see hate being a spouse doesn't matter where it comes from right if we see someone taking advantage of people that we should be caring for we're gonna stand up we're gonna be the change that we want to see in the world and you can do absolutely I think that's all any of us can do yeah well we're on the same page alright that's I think that's a good place to end it man call back thank you time thank you take care peace that was upbeat yeah I like that yeah so right now we're talking about this we're talking about making making the world a better place and yet right now in Orlando Florida yeah there's a hate conference going on and it's it's heartening to see the amount of people who are standing up and going this is wrong mm-hmm and it does hurt to see that hate but it's not new we just aren't able to close our eyes to it anymore so the more we talk about it the more it motivates people mm-hmm and I don't know that's how I got motivated to talk about this stuff is yeah all right so just for my own funsies I really want to talk to slim ok California but that's slim hey slim hey how are you doing yeah well I saw your topic and it just piqued my interest what would you like to talk about today yeah so I am Kristin and I believe the Bible is the Word of God and I believe God gave us two unchangeable laws the natural laws which correspond with true science objective reality and rationality and he's also given a spiritual laws with deal with morality and absolute truths and individuals have to decide whether they want to reject or accept those laws or rules and I believe to also in Jesus he never forced anyone to accept the truths he expressed it those that wanted to hear it listened or sought after him so yeah we're let's say you're thrown out a lot of stuff and it's all really good and I really appreciate you being so honest you're just throwing a lot and so it can is there any way that we can kind of summarize why you believe in a Christian God otherwise I'm going to start zooming in on what do you have already yeah so we can go a lot of different directions so do you want to do you want to try to summarize and condense it down to which direction you want to go or would you rather I guess I want to talk about mainly I guess the the Cambrian explosion where there are no traditions the transitional forms and I'm wondering how is that possible if it's based if evolution is based on science why is it there why are there any slim strong examples of that to show I got you slam I am so proud to tell you that that information has changed a lot in the last 50 years because honestly the idea of transitional fossils not being a thing has been debunked and we found transitional fossils that we found more transitional fossils then we found transitional fossils between those transitional fossils and then we went you know what if this is true and we evolved in this direction then we should be able to find evidence of this transitional fossil here predicted it and then found it so there are a ton of places you can go but the first place I would go is a university because you can actually learn it there are people who dedicate their lives to it there are and honestly dude if that wasn't true do you know how big the conspiracy would have to be my goodness yeah most of us will be in on it right oh yeah well we would expect it because we would accept and and I that's why I got some pencils and paper so I can write it down whatever information you can share with me with cards and I will I will look into that so then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask the live chat to start linking and sending in some good places that we can send slim and the first person is saying that you need to look up the fossil called Tiktaalik tik taa Li ke e I K taa DAA Li ke Tiktaalik okay you can also go to talk origins dot-com that's my favorite one that can give you a lot more than just one example that'll give you a lot of origins yeah also check out our in raw iron rose got a ton of videos on that and he gets pumped about it and when it comes to an evolution specifically he's got a little R in raw AR o n ra ra so alright ro and then raw okay yep okay okay he's Falcon colleges probably dating back about 30-40 years then also either evolutionist have made comments also about nothing really existing in that regard so yeah and when you asked how that was possible conspiracy said no no we we respect people we look up to and that's whether people are in the church or outside the church if we respect people they can tell us things because they have intelligence knowledge they've been to the best of school they have degrees behind their name some of them are insincere they manipulate whether they're in the church our church and abused their authority so they can convince a large variety of people we can look at history and see that has happened I am proud to say slim that if that word so number one if that were the case then it would not make sense for people you know on completely in completely different countries that didn't like each other with those same kinds of degrees to be making up the same lies this is this is not only across one field there are tons and tons of Sciences that are dedicated to just this in different places in areas that have predicted a but predictive ability across fields I I'm proud to tell you that your information is way out of date but that's good that means you get an AMA you get to learn about it other people in the live chat have said that you've got to check out Berkeley University's website that come up a ton also let's see you know like a couple of names of the actual well tektaalik is one of them but Berkeley's biology website and we'll go from there I really hope you look it up and I hear here's the thing I don't I I don't think either of us have a relevant degree so when it comes to going in deep we may not be the resource but if you want to talk about more surface level stuff or about philosophical arguments or things like that I highly urge you to come back in regardless I'd love to find out what you found out let us know report back see what you think give me give me give me a little complete so and now uh I'll probably check back in with you guys on what I looked up sounds good man thank you for calling thank you yeah thanks thanks for allowing me a little time on the air yes absolutely good have a great day you too good right I you know he said there are no transitional fossils I saw that I was like oh my goodness we're gonna have a fight and then we're just like okay here's more information he's like cool oh my god all right let's move on oh my goodness okay let's let's go to Dave in Missouri hi Dave hello hello hey you're talking to Eric and Jenna what would you like to talk about today hey guys I just put some of that last conversation we were talking about your transitional bones when these bones were discovered did they come with instructions or how do you know that these are actual human transitional bones I mean is there any any kind of writings from that time period saying that these were transitional figures or industries how you accept 100% oh these bones are transitional bones because I don't sew a dress or a dress that one gets me you know it's just a bone that was found in the ground how do you know Dave monkey Dave yeah but I didn't know if I was on me if you were kept talking I kept trying to jump in why are you putting words in my mouth I didn't say I believe with absolute certainty anything words you're Matthew you were talking about your transitional bones that the with a bone and you said that I believe 100% a thing I do not believe 100% that I exist I couldn't prove to you so why the hell would I say that about anything else because you just said with your last guy you had a conversation with you thought you guys were going to get into an argument there for a minute so it made it sound to me like you were a big believer in the theory of evolution is that am I correct or am I wrong so in the same way that I believe that gravity and germ theory exists there is do you not think that germs exist I want nobody I believe in gravity absolutely believe no what do you mean yeah whatever that's very massive new position your position I've been listening to your position your position your atheist position what's our position your position is that there is no God no it's not your position no one never said that there's not enough hmm I've never said that no hold on that there's not enough proof he's he's I thought he was revising so were you revising to say instead of us saying there is no God you're saying that we're saying there's not enough proof I think that's that's what I gather from what I've heard from all your conversations and debates that I've listened to is that the main the main contention is that there's there's not enough any of you that that there's a God no matter what not presents to you in a way of archaeological evidence or a biblical or testimonial evidence of any sort from the time period from a couple thousand years ago it just seems like you completely just you do not you will not acknowledge the relevance of any testimonial evidence other than what's the University somewhere that that you for whatever reason makes sense to you but but anything from 2,000 plus years ago it's like it's it's like you said earlier it's a spider-man book because buried in the ground and then someone dug it up well it was my mind that did your rationale that your reasoning your inference reasoning is in that infantile state I mean I want to make sure I'm talking with somebody that's intelligent enough to grasp what I'm about to say yeah so that's really I've got this hi Dave all right so here here's here's how we're gonna start this if you're gonna name call you can exit the show we're going to talk to each other respectfully and kindly if we raise our voices I understand it can get heated but we're gonna do our best to have a very productive conversation is that sound good to you Dave sounds great I haven't called anybody you called either by my insulted by my observation of your show no but we're gonna continue so yeah we're gonna start so oh geez I don't even know where to begin Jenna where do I begin on this do you want to know what we think about anything not a good idea about what you think about on the subject of there being God or no God that's really the whole platform here is that conversation there's there's as far as that's concerned I don't think you guys have the information we're asking for yeah that's why we have a show open to be able to talk about it so we're we're we're we're hosting a show that's asking for information and you realize that and do you also realize that we're providing so many sources yes so the the example of spider-man in the comic book right do you know why I provided that example let's start there I can't read you mind no okay well that means that I was doing a bad job communicating so let me try again because I'd like to communicate that right we we use the best tools at our disposal we use the best tools we have to understand the world around us right are our mental tools our epistemological toolbox right right and we use those tools to decipher you know everything when when you hear something from somebody what you're doing is you're reaching back in your mind to any experiences that you had that that involve you interacting in that way and that informs your choices in the future but there are some times when we learn poorly how to determine what's true and what's not true an example being all of my friends did it therefore it has to be the right thing right that's something that that's something that happens and and we're like right and so well it's not just learned behavior it's learned thinking right and so when this when the caller called up and said we had these ancient texts what I was doing is I was giving an example not because I want to be an asshole or anything like that but but that was the best example that I could think of that used it the exact type of reasoning he was using because he was saying it was dug up it was really old and therefore it was true and I thought you know what let me give an example like that let's say I buried a spider-man comic for a thousand years dramatic example but it was actually actually it's not even a dramatic example I like using Spiderman because it happens in New York because people will say oh well we can look in the Bible in these places existed and they were true and so I can in this example say well New York exists it's actually not an asshole an example it's a pretty damn good one just for these purposes so I'm not trying to be a jerk what I'm actually trying to do is point out the flaw in thinking and okay and I'm not even trying to say that I have all the answers what I want to do though is push us as a society forward so that we can use the best tools we have at our disposal to learn the most about the world that we can and as long as you and I are going at that together we're not have a problem can we agree on this sure what's that are younger tools the tools you just mentioned our minds right one tool is all your mind your ability to you know receive that in process data but the other tools and the only thing we really have at our disposal technically is what's on this earth either biological evidence testimonial evidence from no matter if it's from 50 years ago or 5000 years ago we have something that was written on stone or written in a book or core test them or we have archeological evidence and that's really all we've got I've got one extra thing for you Elmo say the most day I've never heard anybody on your program ever bring this to light and I well that's the main reason I called and sat on hold for an hour if it's the thing that I want to piggyback on perfect if it's not then I just want to jump in really quick sure logic ok logic is fun right so if we're talking about ok if we're talking about abstract concepts like the number one or what multiplication is or how we you know determine PI and and and all of the those are abstract concepts that don't exist in the world that we observe but they're concepts that we have created to describe something to each other and better understand the world so you're saying we have nothing but you know everything that we see at our disposal and I'm saying that let's also add in abstract concepts because this communication that we have is not all just in writing to each other that we're able to communicate to each other and understand concepts to be able to do that so I just wanted to add that in I appreciate that and I appreciate it I came across being very arrogant and condescending I apologize for awhile I I just want to put this out here to you you guys can take this information discard it or hopefully research it I mean legitimate research on it not just swipe right with your thumb on your cell phone I mean these do some actual research so and I'll tell you do I believe that you'll well hopefully they lead you to further research I believe would be good and and and but there are a couple things that I really want to share with you because it would feel disingenuous to say yes right the first and you've probably had this happen to you is people will send us research and books that are thousands and thousands of pages long that they didn't look at themselves Yeah right you get that gift from somebody it's like oh you could use this book and it's like did you read it no I mean it is so in it bytes because I'll come back a week later with with pickle bags under my eyes and jittery from the coffee and I'd be like I read all of it I have synthesized all of this information and I want to talk about it and the person who gave it to me is like I have no idea what you're talking about dude I actually didn't write crap so so long as we both agree that we need to both do the research because otherwise it's just not fair man I get so much yeah no I'm not trying to put you through that I'm just trying to say that the information I'm going to present to you if you want to research what I say I sure hope that you will okay so so what would you like to us to research okay well I'm going to take care of two issues I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone here okay I'm going to at least this is my belief I'm going to prove that there is a God I'm going to prove which God is the right one you know you've got the Muslims you built the Hindus Buddhists Christians Jews how can you know who's right Dave I mean that's that's a conversation that will never be agreed upon in my lifetime I promise no if you're gonna prove it then obviously would have to yeah if you can prove to satisfaction that God exists I'll shave my head on the air all right got it oh no no you know your best I want you to prove it you got it I'll have to be an example to make this for anybody this listen we're gonna do this in a court of law okay with an American court of law okay if it goes over my head I'm going to throw a flag because I want to make sure that we're on the same page and it doesn't you know get into a weird spell I'm saying and we're gonna make the the attorney asking the questions and the judge they're both atheist or agnostic whatever you know they don't believe one way or the other they're not convinced okay okay and we're gonna March we're just thinking the times sake we're just gonna deal with the big screen we're just going to deal with the Muslim faith the Christian faith and the Jewish faith okay just for times sake okay so question yeah what do we enter into evidence well we're gonna bring will bring Muhammad in first let's do the Muslim okay so we've been the whole the whole gist of this thing in the courtroom is each person presenting their case the Muslim or the Christian or the Jew they need to prove to the judge that the God that they believe in is the true God to be to be worshipped him and his teachings to be adhered to you know and then we become into the court of law and I need to prove that their God is the true baby of all humanity so I am that's that's their task in the courtroom they need to prove this so what's in evidence I I agree that God uses deposing guilty of existence I'm gonna hold on it won't take but just a couple minutes with the Muslim faith and being about two minutes well hold on where what I'm asking about entering things into evidence is what physical evidence so are we allowing three holy books in are we allowing across or what do we require for a witness it's going to be different than most the Muslim faith there's nothing more than testimonial evidence okay not well let me think wait no that what you just said they have in the court of law they're going to bring into the courtroom with them testimonial evidence okay so we have that's what they're bringing into the courtroom now in our world you can go back into the Muslim faith when it began and you can and you can bring archeological evidence you know testimonial evidence so let's let's go through this together Dave if I were to bring a Muslim and ask them to go on to the stage and ask for testimonial evidence then we needed to determine whether or not that testimony is admissible in court has that has that witness met their deity no has that witness directly interacted with that deity no how is that different from hearsay is hearsay they're out of court exactly I'm going to show you that I like I like the way you think because you just hit you just hit on something that is so absolutely important to this and that's what I want to point out with me bringing forward actually all mistake let's let's bring Mohammed into the courtroom no Mohammed obviously can't be bothered because none of us have seen Mohammed so Mohammed didn't show up we're throwing out the case let's go to Christianity this is where I'm excited because it's easy enough to pick on other people but it changes when you bring it home let me let me do this for one before you move on Christian you know that's the point I wanted to make about the Muslim faith okay if Mohammed existed and he walked into this courtroom and he had his Quran and the judge asked him to prove that that is the inspired Word of God and then he was to come back and say yes look well the angel Gabriel told me to write these things down you know and then the agnostic or atheist attorney would immediately stop and you know objection hearsay you know says you well what's your evidence in in Mohammed actually everyone stand up and you know he might stand up and shake the Quran at that attorney and say hey look here's my evidence here's the Quran well there's action Beerse Dave that's objection hearsay you they have you got to take a step back because your judge has just inferred that that God exists so in your example yeah so if you're in your example you said the judge says you need to prove that that is the inspired Word of God right oh right that that's assuming that there is yeah that it that brings in a whole bunch of crap that has not been adequately that is not a question that a judge can use the question is is does a God exists there's a God prove that there's ago sure we'll do that and then so let's go on to the question which is the first let's understand the the Muslim faith one man yeah I kind of want to go strategy because there are we going with Muslim instead of Christian does it matter no problem going the Christian next let me do my little show I and you will understand the point I'm trying to make to prove all of this to you okay going on you know we could still got more callers so can we just kind of get that's why I was trying I could have done made my point okay go ahead just the point I'm trying to make that as an atheist the Muslim faith does not prove to Vegas that there is a God oh we can we agree on that there is not enough evidence in the Muslim faith for a God know for me okay yep right okay and you sir yeah I I have not been I have not been convinced that the Muslim God exists right because it's basically just a bunch of comic books that we beg up and and that's their writings and they believe in them what's that they could be and who knows yeah well there are ton of reasons but it's not just that okay it's not just that there are a lot of reasons really what's really the Christian faith okay this March me up in front of the judge and he's telling me to prove it that that there's a bag and that that is the book of my professed God I'll have to prove this okay so are you allowed to take the stand Dave yes yes how is this not hearsay well she's asking me he's asking me to prove that there's a dog and to present my other ones right so so first off you're not the lawyer in this example you're the well you're providing testimony and testimony needs to be not hearsay so how are you not attending hearsay I'm a show that to you let me finish okay I wanna do the same in the beginning I may be the very same thing the Muslim did no Dave no no no no no I have no choice this is this is what we have on the earth this is the use of the archeological and and testimonial evidential evidence we have on Dave what I'm saying is it sounds like you're going from a script and a go and I don't want to hear someone tell us then answer me and don't just say no I'm not going to answer your question I'm trying to present you evidence because I'm asking you for specific things I'm asking you specific is the Bible specific enough for you no I we haven't even gotten in there David what we will do we will though eventually yes my first question though for you was how are you able to provide testimony that's not hearsay as a witness in this court okay as a witness in this court I am presenting evidence that just like any other attorney who defends a client wasn't there but they had the evidence that they're presenting okay so what is the evidence yeah but they have the evidence then you're not a witness so you're not taking the stand you're the lawyer categorize me how do you want to categorize well no no it matters we just established the fact that you said you're a witness and then determined that you are not a witness and then you got upset about it like I'm not upset about none of this dude you know let me make okay know where I'm going with this but I don't think you I don't think you're going to let me present this information on your broadcast I don't think you let me do it I really like yeah mister lawyer wanted you well what are you entering into evidence okay do you guys agree that there's a Bible in this world yeah okay you know how many books are in the Bible no there's 66 books in the Bible okay 27 are in the New Testament the rest are all found in the Old Testament why are we counting books I'm trying to give you you know these are thoughts okay this will be a fact yeah objection relevance trying to tell you that you're not talking to someone that hasn't done the research objection relevance hold on objection well the idea but I'm just trying to tell you that I I'm trying to imply and press upon you and your listeners I'm not someone she's you two are messing up my court metaphor and I'm really having fun here I'm I really like to go back to court Dave I'm objecting relevance what you're talking about how many books are in the Bible and I'm saying I'm a yes I'm saying objet I object what is the purpose of this otherwise it is irrelevant exactly you're exactly right my bad books my collection of 66 books banned and one there's no more impressive than the book of Quran they kind of agree on things separates it you know it separates it from the book of Quran and every other book on this earth what well I know what separated what the one point of the Bible is prophecy there are over 1,700 prophecy and it will prophesied in the Bible yeah of them have come to pass except for 50 of them so yeah hold on have you studied yes I have now you haven't are you whoa hold on did you just you know what man if you're gonna accuse me of that you have no idea about this conversations not only over but i'ma hang up on your ass don't tell me I don't yeah you're done hung up on you listen we we followed your court metaphor I went through with this I was really excited then he went and became a jackass that's not how this works if you wanted to go I was willing to follow you Jenna was willing to follow you and then you didn't stick the landing look if we want to talk about prophecy that's absolutely fine we can talk about prophecy my go-to examples in the book of Eric in the book of Eric it says that 9/11 is going to happen Jenna would that be if I just wrote right now that 9/11 you know September 11th 2001 two planes are gonna fly into the World Trade Center in New York would that be a fantastical thing for you to read oh my gosh that prophecy after the no no of course not um but when we're talking about this we actually can't verify what was written after the fact and some of them we can verify that they were written after the fact and because of that they are not unique or special and some of them are very very broad they are more like Barnum statements and a Barnum statement is uh something that will apply to everyone then as an actual clear-cut thing so sorry guys no at this no worries no worries so if you if you look up like your your star sign it'll say it'll say things about oh you're great friends everyone loved us on the horizon you know whatever whatever be a change in your life yes eventually there will be a change and if you're not actually being specific then it fits in and we can actually compare that against one of my one of my favorite books I found out that it was on Amazon they turned it into a show it's called Good Omens and it's so good Neil Gaiman and Terry freaking project before he passed away wrote it and in this book there is a actual book of prophecy and it is 100% specific you when you're reading it there's a part where it says your coffee is getting cold and like it is specific to the person at the time and no other time and and it's just that's cool it's spot-on that's what we're looking for and that's not what we get from the Bible if you're going to think that that's amazing I've got some property in the desert to sell you buddy if not you should expect better it's halfway through the show so I want to thank those patrons because without you we wouldn't be able to make this happen so before we hop into the next call I would love to thank Neil Bradley our top patron Neil we love you Charlotte Crum thank you so much desert heathen yeah desert Ethan I like that dr. 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get the evidence though it was more scientific in and like the moon and DNA and tilt to the earth he went into prophecy and then he is like you don't do this and I was like whoa dude you don't know me at all like ask me I mean wouldn't the honest thing beatitude ask like so that we're on the same page before just a kid that was Robert my father's days something I don't know even even in my debate with David would I stopped Nozick do you believe this I don't know I don't know put words in your mouth that but anyway I'm talking about somebody who's not even on the air and that's not a nice thing for me to do Adrian what would you like to talk about well I apologize on behalf of you know believers out there for that last caller but yeah I just give the evidence like the tilt of the earth and they plate tectonics and the the ozone layer and the magnetic field and the position of Jupiter which protects us from incoming asteroid strikes and there's just a lot of evidence that looks to be designed and I think you were saying that you know things can nature can sometimes it's just give the appearance of design and and other than that some of them are a stretch so like if we want to talk about you know plate tectonics and and that kind of stuff that's just how physical things interact with each other that's just the the fact of our earth adding more on to that would actually require more evidence so you know the example that I gave in the past I don't think was a good one because it was about morality and it always devolved so I'm gonna try a different example and that is gravity let's say you're dropped onto this planet and you let go of something and it falls to the ground and you're like okay this is a thing that happens when I drop something it falls to the ground I don't know why it happens I know that it happens and now it's up to me to explore and find out why it happens right right right and so we see these phenomena such as the tilt of the earth the complexity of DNA and all of these things that you just described and where's-where's we see that it happens and now we're asking why it happens and some of them we've got some amazing explanations and I'm sure you've looked it up right right right okay yeah you don't exactly need to know like why it happened you just need to know like if you know what are the possibilities of that totally I don't need to know how my car works to be able to drive my car right but it can be helpful when you need to work on it yeah but but but it's it's not like you had to sit me down and to show me how internal combustion engines work so that I'd be able to know understand how to drive a car that's what I mean is that analogy to apply it to our own lives I don't necessarily need to know how I'm crunching to function but that's helpful like if you didn't know if you saw a car that like it didn't have the maker on it or who made it or anything like that and you never disappear first time seeing a car you could still make that determination that the car was designed by somebody actually maybe not right away if you've never seen a car before maybe I mean it's it's not safe to jump to assumptions right away give it a sec look at it before you come to any conclusions in this example it would be as if I was dropped onto an alien planet like a mound of blur right and and I don't know if somebody's gonna get into that blurb and fly it away or if it's just always been there you know so not necessarily but I really quickly want to just finish up the point that I was making I was kind of drawn a circle around this and that was it sounds I bet we could go in and you can describe how a lot of these forces and how a lot of the physics operates in our universe and it's a wonderful and exciting thing to do and regardless of your conclusions look into it cuz it's awesome uh-huh but I there's a story that strikes me here and I I've heard that it was debunked and I really it breaks my heart but it still is a good one and it's the story of Laplace and Napoleon and Laplace had written a book that described how the heavenly bodies moved across the the night sky and the orbits of the planets essentially right around the Sun and so you you have Laplace who called in by Napoleon because in all of these models and all of the the math you you it's it's it's beautiful it's it's incredibly intricate and Napoleon calls him in and says applause this is this is amazing but where's God in your model I'm looking at it and I see their orbits and I see how they're interacting with each other but where is God and Laplace famously says God's not needed yeah it works perfectly fine without it great and then yeah but so we kind of have to see where God is first to be able to you know you know that otherwise we've got the God of the gaps things but you let me talk with applause forgot you know what applause was forgetting though is that there's only two options right it's just God or no God so that is one of the options is God hey I mean you you don't know all your options you could you you could make a wrong choice if you don't know so what all your options are you're close i I I'd love to correct that just a little bit because I know where you're going with this and so just to help you in the future you have infinite options but in the statement God or no God that's a binary right so you have a which is the statement a God exists the negation of that's the Creator God a Creator God remember I had when I discuss and any specific gods until after we've proven a Creator God because we may not even need to get into those other gods we could save a whole lot of time a lot of time if we can just prove that there is no creator god but I would argue that a Creator God is a subset of a God right because then you yeah can i define a god that's not a creator is it right a creator god is an option yes nature is an option – well we – options well well hold on hold on hold on hold on what I'm saying is the negation is is not a god exists so it's a or not a not a doesn't carry information it's just the negation of the statement and so when you're giving a binary the you know is either one thing or the other then if you want to really give that binary it's going to be a God exists or not a God exists but when you what you said is you need to know all of your options and when you do that it's no longer a binary we can come up with a whole bunch of wacky stuff there's only two options and yeah you need to know those two options well well that's why I'm helping I'm trying to help your language here so that you I don't know why I'm trying to help but I'm trying to help I want you to be the better person no matter where you go with it so there are more than two option room way higher stage I learned a lot of logic and reason from watching these these issues that's something that I I did not learn from you know religion and and and I think y'all for that and you know I and I think God really for logic and reason also we've got to get there first I would actually III agree with the former statement and not the latter but you know what you just keep thinking about why yeah so but but anyway the the binary I think is something that I'd really like to leave you with because unfortunately we're getting low on time and I know we just had a whole bunch of fun and didn't get to the thing you wanted to talk about and I'm sorry for that I hope that you can call back and we can jump in but if there's anything that we can take away from this it's that in logic you have three laws right identity non-contradiction I was gonna end on my middle finger wasn't gonna do that excluded middle right and if we can do those things then we can figure out a whole lot if you want to talk about other options I'd be happy to it just may not be comfortable it may not into the narrative that you're thinking but call back and I'd love to be able to have that conversation in two weeks or you can talk to Jamie never right alright well now you know why I believe and what I believe and just want to let you know Adrian you're awesome way more than that I want to dive into that head of yours and learn all about you so call back okay all right all right thank you for God okay brother all right god bless oh come on he didn't maybe maybe not who knows no you know what as nice as he was I'm sure that that's just like reaction it could be I in my mind he said god bless and hung up I went okay yeah so we are getting short on time but we have a whole bunch of colleagues I want to talk to all of them so stay on the line everybody cuz we're gonna run long this weekend who would you like to talk to let's go with Tracy all right Tracy in Canada America's hat how are you doing you're talking to Eric and Jenna Tracy I know um so I don't I called like weeks ago and talked to Eric and his name really modify skeptic yeah yeah yeah so anyways I have a question that will hopefully be quick but it's not as emotional as a question is last time so okay so I know I said before I was raised fundamentalist but about seven years ago so I converted to Catholicism and so I actually had a question specifically for Jenna because you said that you're kept you were formerly a Catholic so one of the things that had drawn me to Catholicism when I convert it was that they claimed that they had this unbroken line from Pete like from Peter all the way to the present day in the bishops and Pope's or not when your D conversion did you come across anything that kind of was able to contradict us or as far as a specific line yeah I I'd been told stuff like that my whole life about how Catholicism was the only religion that began and has never changed and is consistent and just always makes sense all the time over thousands of years and that you can trace it back all the way to Jesus I've never seen any evidence for it it took me probably ten years of questioning to start loosening up the idea of a sky daddy but help me out sure so I didn't I didn't grow up Catholic I was baptized Catholic really and what I learned about the Catholic Church that really blew my mind was that there were times that they got together and voted on the Bible to change it and they've done that multiple times and so you have the council's of Nicaea and the Council of Trent where they decided what books go in and out and how its translated it was translated specifically for King James and there were significant differences there have been differences from those to the others and so the claim that it's unchanged like in the light of all of that evidence I don't know how you could still make that claim so what I was told was that those it took that many people to determine accurately what God wants and what he meant by what he said in the Bible and it takes so much time and so much practice of you know being spiritual and being connected to God and you have to get all of those men all together to figure it out and that there have to be men damn it yeah yeah they're like antenna we can't go we are incapable of knowing so those are the only people that we can go to to ask that's how I was told so this is the thing it's the it's the idea of an ultimate authority that really I think is what I resented and resisted as a little kid and all the way up until now is the idea that one person has the ultimate answer that anybody knows ultimately what is right and wrong it bent urging for that and it's like every time we got a new priest and somebody had mentioned you know why do you keep getting new priests and it what they told me that it's because they had to keep rotating people so that nobody got too attached to one priest yeah but I mean I'm actually starting to second-guess the reasoning for that after finding out all the sex scandals but anyway um it's the idea that I can't know for myself I can't decide for myself I have to ask somebody else that I just I couldn't get behind and so now that's why I'm here it's cuz I decided that the people that I was asked that I was asking were giving me conflicting answers every time I would experiment I'd ask this priest or that priest and they'd get different answers and it just it didn't make sense yeah I don't for me like for a time it was actually attractive to have just like one source of answers yeah you know growing up I was like the bane of the pastor asking all these questions and then I just kind of when I got older I was like just stop asking questions and I think wouldn't it be nice if somebody just had all the answers that would be nice wouldn't it be cool but you know like being part of the LGBT community kind of you know makes me question about what Christianity says right because they're all like oh it's a sin blah blah blah right and so well they were at the church I went to that's for sure I mean yeah I mean Catholics are not quite as hard on that as like some of the fundamentals are they're like well it's a sin but as long if you act on it but not if you think it or something I think that there can be a dream fundamentalism in any real yeah and and Catholics used to be a lot more hardcore in general it's pretty hardcore so okay do you have any other questions um no actually I just wanted your thoughts on that because I'm I'm I'm kind of like almost at the point where I'm ready to call myself an atheist but I'm not like I feel have a few random questions here and there so do you want some advice did you want to throw them out um yeah actually that would be great yeah what's up um so what I did was I came down to it and I was like I believed in something I know there's something and I don't know what it is so I had a friend that wanted me to take me to a mosque and I was like you know what that sounds really cool and I'd be really open to that because I don't know what's true so I'm willing to go and explore all the other religions but there's so many and before I really get into looking into all of them how about I start from square one let's figure out if I believe in a God at all and then I can start exploring and going with my feelings and what feels more right and then figuring it out from there and so all I did was I was like I want to hear both sides of the story as objective as possible I want to know actually what's true and not just what I should believe or what anybody thinks I should believe I want to know what's true so I googled atheist vs. theist debates on YouTube and there are hours I just listened yeah I've watched them I've even I even watched Eric debate but there's just lookit from different perspectives don't just pick one person and only hear their side listen from different religions different atheists different all just get as many kinds of perspectives as you can because what I realized very quickly was that the theists side was the same over and over and over again it was the same argument and it failed every time I heard it and I started realizing that it just didn't make sense after hearing what the atheist response was I was like oh my god that just makes so much more sense and that's when I started exploring okay so if this makes sense but I was told that that's not true then why does that make sense and so I had to explore more why do why does anything make sense yep or not yeah one eye we can go into that but you get to explore and come back we can find something and we could talk more about it oh yeah okay yeah thank you I will definitely do that cool can I throw in one two yeah hey hey Tracy yeah there are people that I know who if I were to write down everything I think about religion would agree with me on a hundred percent of those things that don't call themselves atheists because they don't like the word um regardless of what you call yourself I was afraid for a while because I thought it would make me a different human that I would somehow change my character would change and it took me recognizing that I'm still the same person I still love my family I still have the same values and that's okay and it took a lot of that for me to recognize that that change or just saying I'm an atheist wasn't going to magically change me but it was just identifying something that was already there and whether or not you decide to make that choice you still belong here and you don't have to call yourself an atheist but if you walk into these doors you're welcome to be here you're welcome to have a drink with us and eat with us and spend time with us and no one here is gonna judge you no one here is gonna make you feel bad about it so just just so you know the cool thing is that I've actually become a better person because my reason for being a good person isn't because I was told to it's cuz I decided to yeah I mean like cuz parler isn't mind saying about you know whether to be an A or both saying I'm an atheist or not because I want to live as like it's gonna sound weird to say it this way but I want to live as one person not as like over here with these people I'm like the good Christian and then over here I'm like the you know I'm the yes to lesbian whatever right like I want to be one person not like you know I'm one person here in one person there you deserve to get to just be you and that's why we're doing this is because we want you to be able to do that so keep doing you and keep learning and keep asking questions and keep exploring and ask different people and going and demand good answers out of things because you deserve them you don't need to put up with responses you get to understand the world around you and the most exciting piece is when nobody knows cuz that means we've got more to learn mmm-hmm that just makes the world more you're having awesome well thank you so much thank you big hugs take care hey youtube alright let's go with Michael in Texas I'm Michael hello hey hey I was gonna talk to you guys eirick hi Jenna um well I had a couple of questions here I mean I called about just you know the songs of Adam and Eve and I had a couple more questions the meantime I hope we can cover them but anyway just so I'm clear you wanted to talk about the story of Cain and Abel in the book of Genesis well not necessarily Cain and Abel I was a Morissette and Cain you know their wives read the ones that the ones they took from the Land of Nod across the river after they exited Eden that one okay yeah I guess where did you know they come from because I don't know if in the Bible because I'm trying to you know learn and study and understand you know the story uh you know the Bible itself but I don't know if it says anything in the Bible where God created you know other humans for them to marry do you know you know where they came from or who they were so I looked into it it was one of the most uncomfortable conversations I had with my pastor because I I i was i I essentially asked him did was ever was it just nothing but incest but I was young like I was young and I didn't realize just how bad of a question I was asking him I was just like was everyone having sex with their mom that's what I thought hey what is going on and my pastor my pastor said that God blessed their genes so that it would be okay so according to my church they did incest the earth into what it is which was weird they said the same thing in my church that they didn't say that they made their genes okay they said oh well that's just all there was no well God blessed it it was so he explained to you that they had sex with ease and that's where the children came from is but then I also was told that there were just also some humans outside of Eden they had their own City and they just over there no yeah yeah they went and took wives and everybody was just like where the did the other city come from and nobody I don't know dude it's not my face I think it's a make-believe state yeah yeah this is this is kind of one of those things where like we got a you got to hop onto the fan sites cuz I'm we look at all kinds of questions about this in the Bible and that's one of the reasons that we're so confused as to why so many people believe it is cuz there's a lot that doesn't make sense in the Bible and I had never read the Bible all the way until after I D converted because I was convinced that I had just gone to church every single Sunday of my entire life and every single Sunday they read the Bible so I had I'd surely I'd heard it all by now so jesus loves you in the in the comments says incest wasn't as bad then because there weren't as many bad mutations is what I've been told well and and and you know really it doesn't even mention that and by when I asked one person you know I guess he's studying to be some sort of pass or something you know and what he explained to me that you know women weren't important you know at that time so that's why they didn't mention where the wives came from you know and I started you know I haven't you know I wasn't raised in a religious background but when I started reading the Bible that's when I started you know questioning certain things and I think this is probably you know in the Bible this is probably you know one of the the questions that you know the beginning of my questioning of you know certain things and you know why isn't it mentioned there and you know you know I just don't know and I was hoping that maybe you guys may have had some sort of answers or maybe somewhere in the Bible that says you know they had you know God created other women for you know the Senate and Cain to marry and but I just haven't come across that I didn't know if you guys had any other input on that the same crap happens after the flood but you know what dude the the interesting thing is is when I finally gave myself permission to put the Bible down I had no reason to pick it back up the better question is why are you picking it up in the first place I don't know I mean to be honest with you I'm just trying to I'm just trying to understand I mean I don't know I mean because it's a big part of human I guess human nature human civilizations I mean since pretty much the beginning of time I mean you know people believed in most gods you know back day than Christianity with one God and and honestly I don't know if it you know if there's anything to it or if I'm just wasting my time I mean I just don't know in any religion no my family they were Catholic but you know we didn't really practice my mom didn't take the church or anything like that and I really didn't start reading the Bible until you know my adult life probably into my early 30s and you know trying to have I guess but were you told things like God is love and you know Jesus loves you and were you told ramas things throughout your whole life is it was more of my until not until I started actually questioning you know God the Bible you know trying to understand if it's you know if it was real or not and that's when you know the people that I talk to you know that's when they'll you know that's when they start talking to me about you know how the truth is in Jesus Christ you look at Jesus Christ he loved you and it's really just the the the people that I've been asking questions you know to try to understand what's going on those are the people to kind of come at me sort of in that direction but as a child or growing up really I didn't have any of that until I started talking to people and questioning about the Bible so lucky bastard so you're agnostic right now I don't know I mean putting a label on something I really don't know I mean maybe I guess you can classify do you mind just let anyone know where you're at to be honest with you I don't know I mean really the the Bible itself I I don't understand or I don't think that the Bible was inspired by God I think that you know men wrote the Bible maybe to control the populace when the Bible was written you know as far as God itself I mean I just don't I don't know I mean is it more of a is there a god or which God is it kind of question in your head maybe a God maybe he created us and just left us you know to depend for ourselves maybe you know the Bible itself wasn't he inspired by God I mean to be honest with you I don't know but that brings me to one question though because I was looking at something recently I don't know if you guys ever heard of the golden ratio or fractals and see a lot of people talk about intelligent design and these two things that I was looking at I mean it seems to me like they're discovered in nature I mean you know from the smallest atom I guess you know even looking out into the universe and you know there's something to that and I don't know if I mean thing to that to a god well it doesn't sound like he's it sounds like it's kind of nebulous well kind of however you define this God whether its energy or whatever it's whatever you however you define God how do you get from something to it to a spiritual being or a Guyot or a deity or however you want to word it or is it just in like an unexplained thing I don't know I mean these things right here to me I mean it seems I mean because I people talk about you know intelligent design and these type of you know these types of things in nature you know they they seem to have some sort of a consistent pattern I don't know I mean maybe does a pattern mean and that there is a designer is there no way to have a pattern without a designer not necessarily really I don't believe looked into it I don't know no I haven't really looked into it okay cool so there's actually I think Eric is actually pulling it up right now so there was a little bit that I wanted to talk to you about and kind of point you toward was it was it the mandala thing the I learned it so I learned about it in philosophy beyond belief or philosophy under the influence I might not have been there that oh the mandala dala effective yeah oh there's our patterns even if there's nobody there to create a pattern and so it's just saying like there's a there are several examples that you can start looking into of how you can find pattern without a designer and I was gonna take it in it completely differently yes you know talking about that is that the Mandela effect I mean that's something that has to do with our memory though I mean that you know because these are specific mathematical patterns because they can also they believe that the Fibonacci sequence is also somehow related to the golden ratio I want to show the thing I think we're getting somewhere so I'm a really really really really big geek and one of the things that I absolutely love is a channel called number file on YouTube numberphile yeah if you want to go real deep math like they do some really great stuff and numberphile and a couple of other channels have talked about the golden ratio I don't know anything about it at this point and well the important thing to know is the golden ratio is not as hard to get to as you would think and the fact that it occurs in nature is not a surprising thing when you get to understand the way it all works out so even if it did seem complex you have the right answer right now I don't know and that's okay and as you're exploring it right what you're asking is the right question how do I learn that's a wonderful place to be you're not saying but but but what what you're kind of walking the line on is well maybe that means there's a creator no it just means there's a thing you don't know and that's okay but look into it and then find out and then tell other people so that they'll know it's looking into it yeah it's it's a totally good place to be I mean just the thing is don't give it more weight than it deserves you know what I mean like just don't get stuck where you feel like you found the answer yeah there might not necessarily be the answer to anything yeah yeah so we just got to come up with an answer and just kind of go with it and then if something leads me to change it and I change it and almost I start with I try and start with zero and then if there's an answer that comes up I'll follow it right no you said come up with an answer investigate yeah yeah you're right yeah and I kind of believe I mean person I think that there may not ever you know I may never be able to come to a conclusion I mean I I may just be wasting my time you know just kind of looking into the top but I mean honestly I think that it's big Dylan a lot of people's lives and even the Bible was true I don't think that honestly I don't think that I would want to worship you know that particular God because I mean you know some of the stories in the Bible that I've read I mean they're just I just don't think a god would would do some of the stuff that he's commanded these men to do I would yes I'm not sure if I can believe in that type of God but I mean you know I don't know it maybe there is you know something out there so I mean that's you know that's why I'm just kind of you know kind of questioning this and I don't know I think a lot of this stuff that I you know read up on or her look into mostly just for you know entertainment for you know for whatever reason because who knows at the end of the day it may not ever matter I mean you know I mean I was I didn't know my existence before I was born and you know maybe after I die I won't know my existence then that's exactly how I say it when people ask where do you think you go when you die I say exactly where I went before I was born so we've been corrected in the life trying to just want to throw that out there then and there Michael we do have a couple more calls we want to get to but we've been corrected and I just want to make sure that I throw it out there for all of us to hear and that is we were talking about incest and then we were also talking about whether or not we would worship a God that that was that was that immoral whether that go out whether a God exists and is immoral and whether or not incest is icky has nothing to do with whether or not it's true yeah and so basing your conclusions on each factor or immorality is a bad idea it does not get you the truth we can talk about moral and ethical things we can talk about our current societal views on the way that you know we we choose our partners but it doesn't have anything specifically to do with whether or not that God exists so good call on the live chat that is absolutely true so Michael I hope you have a really good rest of your day yeah thank you for Klara's preciate you okay thank you thank you all right yeah we did we started going down that hole yeah doesn't matter doesn't matter it's it's gross yeah yeah all right Charmaine in Alabama I sure mean hello you've been waiting a long time to talk to thank you for waiting we have one more call after you oh I know love you guys love you too would you want to talk about okay well um freshly be converted as of like six months ago [Laughter] there's still theist and I've been trying to I'm sorry I'm emotional um I've been trying to come up to my husband and he just kind of shrugged off like I asked the question and I try not to start off with hey baby I don't believe anymore I've been trying to kind of build up to a point so I've been like asking a series of questions which started about I guess I would say a year ago started asking them simple questions like I'll ask them a question a week and just be like hey on what grounds would you divorce me or on what grounds which you not love me anymore home with brown you know these kinds of things and ultimately when he just continues to sit with you know if you found somebody else sorry if you can hear my four month old screaming in there it's okay anyway but I was just saying hey buddy like you know on what grounds would you not think that I was you know that you wouldn't be with me anymore and you know every time I should unless you found somebody else to be with that would be it and I was like okay so I've been trying to build a courage but at this point where's like um we were we're both involved in the church because even though I'm an atheist I haven't been able to just be like okay I stopped everything like I stepped down from my teaching position last year I was teaching world religions and cults and I think about three years ago I started asking questions that I would be teaching about in cult class in a world religion class and I I got tired of people slamming other people's beliefs and I start asking my own self what I believe it anyway sorry for it but I just think I'm I just like I don't I don't know how long I can keep up the charade because I find that our services when were there and we're singing like I can't I used to just be very very emotionally evocative so it didn't matter if I believe it or not I just was like I really love the song so I can cry or oh I really love this music so I can I can dance mm-hmm and now it's getting to the point where I can't do those things and I just kind of I'm not going to staring blankly and then my husband sat next to me in a service recently and the pastor in Spanish was like hey you know like lift your hands and say Jesus is Lord and I stood there and she was like did you hear what he said and I tried to pretend that I didn't understand or that the translation was lacking but he knew that I understood what it meant in Spanish and so he just kind of looked at me he was like what's wrong with you you're okay we'll talk later so so I'm gonna see if I can understand what's going on real quick if that's okay with you yeah so you are fully do you converted yes and you have been discussing some doubts with your husband over the past year but not very not a whole lot that he that he finally has gotten an idea that something might be different but he doesn't know okay and you're at the point where you're already kind of fed up going along with the game that everybody else is playing that you don't want to play anymore right right okay are you do you feel that if you were to tell him flat-out I'm an atheist what what do you think would happen well I was gonna say because he totally is what about his leaders I don't know because he has a really loving leader that actually used to be he used to be I forget what you call it but anyway he used to totally worship energy and and then but he was you know converted to Christianity and so he's like he's real compassionate and he you know I was the one that like encouraged my husband and I go into our marriage being macho and stuff like that so he has a lot of weight with my husband as far as what he thinks or how he responds to things but I I personally don't know how my husband will respond with just us talking okay because he doesn't really individualize to thoughts he mostly is like you know the Bible says or you know the pastor says I don't know what he personally would do or think so I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you if I was in your shoes what I think I would do and and offer advice that there are more people with much more education than I have that might be able to help you better than I can second or therapy project might be a really good way to go if you have the means I found my current therapist on Psychology Today by looking up by my insurance company and what I was looking for and kind of searching that way and that's how I found mine but so seeking out help from professionals is the first step that I would do the second step is something that I've learned and having gone through this process and debating on whether or not I should tell my husband or talk to my husband or not that communication no matter what whether it's faulty or not is always a good default position to take because if there is problems with your communication you have to communicate to discover what those problems are and in order to fix them you have to communicate in order to understand where the other person's coming from where they are because if you don't well then you don't know what kind of a relationship you're in and you can't have a healthy relationship that way and this again is just my personal opinion from my own personal experience I again I would come to the conclusion that there is a possibility that my marriage might not make it through that because I had built a relationship with a god and a religion background understanding that that was part of the contract that I essentially signed I would understand that that could possibly come to an end but that not being the goal usually you just have to accept that there are some things might happen that you might not want but you know you all you can do is the best you can you know yeah if I can dove tail interesting sure yeah the the only thing that I would add after what you said because we use it as yes that um the only thing I would add in is when you're communicating I know that this was a lesson that I've learned and it's helped and that is talked about yourself it can sometimes come off as an accusation unintentionally when you're communicating about these things and so the best kind of communication that I have had was one where I said hey there's this thing going on and I'm really really nervous I'm afraid to tell you because I love you and I'm afraid that by talking to you about this it would hurt the way you think about me but it's very important that I talk to you because I love you right that's all it's important to me to understand where you're coming from because I love you yeah are you yeah right it's just to say that and so when you start there instead of saying you know I am an atheist deal with it because a lot of people have well a lot of people have baggage with it they think atheist means all of these other things I think atheist means you know you hate God you worship the devil you go out and you perform abortions every week and you go out and you you know but whatever all of these different things and a lot of people read that as I don't want to have a relationship with you anymore and that can hurt practicing it and saying hey I care about you and it's I'm afraid to tell you to talk about this because because I love you letting him know that you're still the person who loves them you're still you and that you're telling them because you love them that that has helped a lot in my life and I don't know if that's necessarily gonna be what helps in yours but that's the best advice I have I highly suggest but Jenna said and that is getting therapy first are talking to a therapist that way they can understand your individual unique situation one thing that I learned in rehab was using the phrase I'm feeling blank actually saying out loud to someone I'm feeling like this because we don't something that I've learned is we don't say that enough and we don't ask in return I'm feeling like this how are you feeling we say how are you and we say fine great weight sure we don't think about it we don't actually ask ourselves how am I feeling and what caused me to feel this way and alternatively asking our partner hey when I was going through that really rough time you know a week ago and I was having I was just complaining and crying all the time how were you feeling when I was going through that that had something that had not occurred to me to ask about my husband when I was going through stuff until I started seeing a therapist she asked me how was your husband feeling I was like I never thought to ask I would definitely listen to Jenna because I'm single she's still happily [Laughter] but regardless of what happens big hugs you know what you're doing the right thing and you have support just keep just know that you're not alone there are people out there there are people that you can find the internet helps there's a love bomb going on in the life and you should see these people on the other side of the glass yeah oh we're all rooting for you thank you big hugs need take care okay thank you thank you we've got more callers to take let's move on because we are running late I've got the warm fuzzies now how about you that's that's that's a tough position to be in her late yeah recently but you know what I'd rather be on this side of things than where I was any day any day so happy that you're here thank you me too mark in Germany you have been waiting for far far too long thank you Mark hi guys can you hear me yes yes great perfect as well so yeah I've been watching your show and and atheist experience for ages but I never really had a reason really to call you I work as an English teacher out here and I recently had a new class I work for I work for a language school so basically I get given classes I'm not I'm not freelance so I kind of get given classes and I just I just take them and I do I'm told basically and I found out that the reason they want to learn English is it because they are Jehovah's Witnesses and they are to a big international conference in South Africa in September why they're learning a new language yes because the conference will be completely in English and and let me preface this by saying there are really really amazing lovely people very well and and they're super nice but the thing is that I don't really know how I feel about it because I feel like I'm indirectly helping people spread their religion okay I'm an atheist I'm a former Christian and sort of I try and stay away from being too anti theist but I get a little bit angry and I have a good debate usually on one these people just because it gets down to work and I can't really bring anything up with them in this professional setting because obviously my job is to teach English and not speak epistemology or anything like that but I just wondered if you had any advice as to whether you think I should carry on teaching them or if I should speak to my boss or anything about it because I just I don't know how comfortable I feel about it John I agreeing ear to ear you want to go first yeah yeah keep doing what you're doing the more that you can be present and be an example to people the more opportunities people have to learn from you okay yep I that exactly do you know how hard it is to get in touch with Jay dubs I mean to put them in a position where they're learning from you is tough mm-hmm is tough you have an opportunity in any way even if it's a small way to be the change you want to see in the world yeah foster your love of learning I mean make it an exciting class make it something that they're like holy crap I'm having fun learning this I want to learn the questions that you know they're not getting asked at home yeah and it doesn't have to be tough bleeding and it doesn't have to be attentive and it doesn't even have to be about Jehovah's Witnesses no it can just be philosophical just anything you just branching yeah you mined-out really anything the more education somebody gets the better tools that you give them the better they're going to be able to go on and the thing is is if they don't have you teaching them they're gonna find somebody else and who knows where they're gonna get next so take that take it and run with it and be an awesome teacher don't ever you know hold back education and and this is this is an opportunity that not everybody gets when especially since you say that there's they're good people and they're people that you care about you know that's an even bigger sign that you want to stick around them yeah they have the right kind of ideas about how to you know be good people right yeah you gotta you gotta go in and be Robin Williams from Dead Poets Society captain my captain let's do it like right but it's that one person who has this that that one opportunity to change you know how many lives no pressure but it's just being an example oh you have to you don't have to tell them anything I mean and we had to we had a we had a moment in the last class when they'd sort of done a bit of homework and one of the guys came in and told us they'd been in Berlin this weekend setting up for a bit because there's a conference there was a conference this weekend and they kind of cuz they don't know my views on it or they didn't and they kind of said Oh anyone's welcome to come and I felt like they were you know doing what to who was witnesses do and inviting me and everything and I can't even all I said was I stopped my thing but thank you I don't know how acceptable it is I know that the guys you know the mothers debate they try and keep it fun but we don't generally talk about politics or religion or those kind of things with unless unless the students were specifically asked to talk about you know bricks it or what's going on in Germany the moment or in America don't report her stuff so yeah I just I'm trying to figure out sort of how to how to weave them away and how to deal with it and and how to how to best be the change you want to be exactly and yeah it's it's so much more than religion you know once the once you answer that one question we still have to build a world together that we can all live in and be good to each other you know if if they just if the only thing that they take away from that is if somehow they find out that you're not a Jehovah's Witness and you're a good person that is HUGE you know there are different positions for different people and I'm in a position where I was raised with such an extreme example of religion that now that I've discovered what life is like without it I have I have no choice but to be motivated to change the world and come out as an atheist and try to make changes but there are also people who are in a position where it would not necessarily be helpful for them to come out as atheists for example I've been learning a lot from Neil deGrasse Tyson and he won't label himself an atheist for reasons that he's because he he claims he's a teacher he's not here to tell you what side to choose he's here to present you some information you know take that stance and that's necessary yeah yeah no we're good people to be out atheists but yeah we're not gonna hate ya we're not gonna tell you that there's one right way to do it we'll just think you're wrong all right hey Mark guys we are super super late a more good time so yeah I'm taking my cool and Africa I really enjoyed the show today and keep doing keep up the good work well yeah will do oh my goodness that was one heck of an episode we are way way over time I I want to say thank you so much to those people in the back can do we have a camera in the back can we can we see the crew at all possibly yes hello everyone all the crew thank you so much for doing what you do we are way over time and you're really putting in a whole bunch of work thank you so much Jenna this has been fun what did you think I bet it was a blast right you're diving right in it's like you've been doing this first am i calling jesus told oh gosh and that was the end of Jenna so I'm not gonna be here next week Jamie's gonna be here next week I'm gonna be up in Nashville again if you want to check it out check out ask and wonder and that events going on otherwise I'll be back in two weeks Jenna I want to see more of you here at the ACA I want to see you on more programming oh off Matt Matt's on the other side of the glass go no no cheers for me whatever if you want to catch a little bit more of me before the end of the day I'm gonna be on the Atheist Experience we've got those love rings up what what is she taking my spot we're talking after the show all right thank you live studio audience thank you and for those of you who don't believe this is your community you can come here and it doesn't matter if you only ever show up once you belong here this is something that we're building together and we're building it for each other because we're the only ones we got mm-hmm but for those of you do you remember how to sign off I do you know how to sign up we pointed the camera we say we don't hate you we just think you're wrong okay ready so I'm gonna say for those of you who do believe we don't hate ya we just think you're on see you next week