Mohammed hijab vs David wood highlights | Muslim vs Christian debate

Posted By on July 11, 2019

I think we will start with rather Mohammed a job giving us his 20 minute opening statement [Applause] [Applause] you know the Quran tells us Tala Allah Kelly meeting so when an albino come lnamidal Allah the first thing we are asked to do and we're engaging with Christian people is to come to common terms that will worship none but allah subhana wa ta'ala and that's something we really need to think about we need to think about the common grounds that we have with christians there's lots in common we believe in Jesus Christ we believe in the Messiah we believe in him we love the Messiah we believe Jesus believed that he was born from the Virgin Mary there's a whole chapter in the Quran dedicated to that well of course the elephant in the room or the difference of opinion is in the fact that we as Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine or that the Holy Spirit is divine today's discussion ladies and gentlemen is about her head and Trinity so hate is monotheism to believe and worship in one God the Quran says put Allah I had the love summit that say he is Allah one and only the eternally besought of all the sovereign the Trinity is defined by the after nations Creed in 500 AD after nation Creed has one divine person that one divine being divided into three divine persons the father of son of the Holy Spirit the father is God the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God but there are not three gods but one God it goes the father is Almighty the son is almighty and the Holy Spirit is Almighty but there are not three all my T's there's one Almighty this is what the Athanasian Creed says now to be honest with you I've heard David would speak before and I've noticed that there are three common fallacies that he falls into quite often one of them is a fallacy called the two Cory fallacy which is an appeal to Hippocrates another one is a straw man and a third one is the red herring these three fallacies are employed by him quite often and he talks about Islam extensively as you guys may know in a negative way Salaam Initiative has put up a database of all of the major misconceptions against Islam being answered and this can be seen in the link below I also want to give credit to one team member who has made a website called many prophets one message which can also be seen in the link below you can see more information about that now to cut straight into it the question now is this the question is when we look at the Old Testament do we find this idea of the Nicean Trinity because the Nicean Trinity is very specific after the Constantinople Creed in 381 the idea that the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are three co-equal Co eternal independent beings remember those words co-equal Co eternal independent persons of the one being of God this is the Nicene understanding of the Trinity now having said that guys when you look at the Old Testament do we see this because when we look at the Old Testament we find the Shama chapter 6 verse 4 Shama Israel at the right along you know I had here o Israel My Lord our Lord is one would hear when you look at the first commandment chapter 20 verse 3 of Exodus you find there's no God beside me I'm your Lord and is no God beside me you find in Isaiah chapter 43 verse 11 once again the discussion of I'm you God and besides me there is no Savior now someone might argue about the word eloheem and this is the weakness of the argument it's a weak linguistic Cartman who at him is a majestic plural they would argue look there are nine thousand pronouns in the Bible which relates to God's name let's take for example Genesis chapter 1 verse 1 Bereshit Maha siddhis Baha Elohim the word raha means he created whenever you find a pronoun in the Old Testament referring to Elohim you always find it in third person male singular one more time third-person male singular you don't find a plural version of that you don't find the a pronoun which is pluralized so now the question would be is this a Jew who is acquainted with the Torah with the Old Testament why would one ask him to realign his belief his theological doctrines into believing in a triune God when in fact he's been instructed quite explicitly in fact in the Old Testament not to break the commandments you see it gets a little bit more interesting even when you look at the New Testament now we're not the New Testament has different Austin authors they're 27 books of the New Testament you've got Paul was written up from 7 to 13 books in this dispute there so exactly how much is written John written many books who is John we don't know who John is by the way we don't know who John is but yes Paul had a kind of exaltation Christology there's no doubt he did believe that Jesus was divine and a good example of that is the second Philippians for him but he believed in a kind of subordination ISM how do we know that because if you look at in line 9 to 11 it's quite explicit that God gives him the name so he didn't have it before Jesus did not have the name before and he makes above all names so that he believes in the kind of subordination is in our sub relation ISM it's a hierarchy within the Trinity remember we said and I see and Trinity is three co-equal Co eternal persons of the Godhead Paul didn't believe this he believes in a hierarchy John believed in an incarnation Christology in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God everyone knows the prologue John chapter one yeah but the question is this who is John his gospel was found some 95 ad this is the time it was founded 95 AD that's some 65 years after Jesus's disappearance the irony overall is that you'll find in the Gospel of John for example passages like John 17:3 were explicitly mentions that the father is the only true God explicitly mentions this and this was such a thorn in the side of the church fathers that Augustine a major church father who died 430 ad and who wrote who wrote an exegesis on John you know he said he rearranged the words of John chapter 17 verse 3 he changed the word order so as to make Jesus and the father the true gods this is how severe it was when you find mark chapter 12 verse 29 that you came to Jesus asking how to be saved and what did Jesus say to Jesus say and Mark by the way is the most ancient manuscript of all of the Gospels most ancient Gospels what did Jesus say did he say you have to believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit as co-equal Co eternal independent beings he said no he said he referred him to the Shema chapter 6 verse 4 of Deuteronomy that's what he referred him to he didn't tell him believe me as God or believe the Holy Spirit is God or all these things know so you see real entry that the question is where do people Christians today where did I get their information of the Trinity you'll find that in Matthew chapter 28 verse 19 it talks about it's called the baptismal formula where the father and the Holy Spirit is mentioned going the way baptizing the way the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit and so Christians use this as just proof journeys in the Bible now the users to say look the Trinity is in the Bible now but why don't they look at Luke chapter 9 verse 26 because Luke chapter 9 verse 26 has a different triadic formula where there's the Father the Son and the Holy Angels yes the Holy Angels not the Holy Spirit so why don't we infer a Trinity from this this is the question now we've had these debates before and they've been done before and it's usually okay we'll get a vague verse here ambiguous verse here and we'll start talking about these things but here's an interesting question now how did the earliest generations of Christians interpret the New Testament corpus you have church fathers who are the most learned men of Christendom people like clement of rome Polycom Origen people like those individuals none of those church fathers for the first 300 years listen to what I'm saying none of those church fathers for the first 300 years of church history inferred a nice sea and Trinity from this can you imagine 300 years 10 minutes if even Julian who died 240 80 Tertullian who dubbed or coined the term Trinity us which was later translated into Trinity he was a subordination assistant he believed the hierarchy within the different persons of the Godhead the interesting point here is you have someone like you have someone like Hill opera's he was taught by a rainiest massive church father Justin Mata massive church father he taught origin of Alexandria a massive church father and he writes in his book against the heresies in chapter 22 what does he write he talks about this group called the Ebionites who were around around 70 AD 40 years after the disappearance of Jesus and they believed that Jesus was not God that he was a prophet and that he was the Messiah there were other groups like the monarchists who believed the non divinity of Jesus it wasn't just the EB Anais some monarch eNOS also believed that Jesus was not divine in the way that Trinitarians make out to be no one spoke about the Holy Spirit being God co-equal and coeternal and independent with the father and the son in the first 300 years that discussion is completely gone so this is quite interesting ladies and gentlemen you know why because you could say from this that where the Islamic position of the non divinity of Jesus and the non divinity of the Holy Spirit was represented in the early church the Nicean Trinitarian position was not who I say that one more time he wants to hear him okay where the Islamic position of the non divinity of Jesus Christ was present and the non divinity of the Holy Spirit was present in early Christian church history the Nicean Trinitarian understanding of the post Constantinople Creed was not prove me wrong David prove me wrong give me one person for the first 300 years of church history that detailed eternal independent father son Holy Spirit give me silence me prove me wrong I want to be proven wrong today I want to be proven wrong to be silenced me tell me one church father for the first 300 years of church history that said the Holy Spirit was co-equal Co eternal independent with the father a son please please give me the give me the records is a historical investigation you just give me one I will be quiet I will apologize I will apologize in front of everyone I will apologize in front of everyone yes now it gets a little bit more stickier than that because if you look at a book called the Christian doctrines early Christian doctrines by J&D Kelly conservative Christian scholar he details exactly how this Trinitarian and I seem to an Italian thing came about if you look at chapter 5 is a very interesting read go and read it it says that you had for example a tenacious who was a very ardent Trinitarian around Nicean times and then you have Hillary up on tears they were advocating the Trinitarian position then you had the Cappadocia and fathers who are Greg Greg revenues and Xia's gregory of nyssa and parcel the grape and they battle the so-called great they are the ones who advanced the Trinitarian position the question is who gave those guys the authority to interpret texts like this and to overrule all the things that came before why now the last thing I want to talk about is the rationality of the Trinity because this has to be mentioned now the Trinity asked Thomas Jefferson mentioned is an unintelligible this is what he says an unintelligible idea of platonic mysticisms that three are one it's a contradiction ladies and gentlemen that you have fathers almighty son Almighty Holy Spirit is Almighty but there are not three all matches about one Almighty that's a contradiction that's why Randolph Rahl Ross wrote in his book common sense Christianity talking about the hypostatic Union because now you have Jesus who's 100% man and 100% God tell me what is a contradiction of that isn't it's like saying X is 100% a square and 100% a circle

Posted by Lewis Heart

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