Martin Marty: 500 Years for the Protestant Reformation

Posted By on June 20, 2019



[Applause] texts for evening meditation is the humanity's mirror our own image and our image of the world through the humanities we reflect on the fundamental question what does it mean to be human the humanities offer clues but never a complete answer they reveal how people have tried to make moral spiritual and intellectual sense of the world in which irrationality despair loneliness and death are as conspicuous as birth friendship hope and reason we learn how individuals are society's define the moral life and try to attain it attempt to reconcile freedom and responsibilities of citizenship and express themselves artistically the humanities do not necessarily mean humanists nor do they always inspire the individual with what Cicero called incentive to noble action but by awakening a sense of what it might be like to be someone else or to live in another time or culture they tell us about ourselves strengthen our imagination and enrich our experience the increase our distinctively human potential that's why we study the humanities that's why we celebrate the amenities in this festival and I think that frames what I'm be talking about as an historian of religion and culture Luther is not usually called humanists but he's always listed with the founding of Reformation and Renaissance times and yet his whole education was what today would be called the humanities philosophy history and all the rest what does it mean to be human the Protestant Reformation was born in a few centers Luther's Germany Wittenberg October 31st 1517 500 years and a couple days ago so that's irrelevant now Switzerland John Calvin and any of the Dutch humanists and all who were wrestling with what does it mean to be human and what interests me about all of them is they learned they had to deal with paradox paradox we usually think of as being a contradiction Paul Tillich taught us that's not the root of the word para doxa a paradox is something goes against an opinion we have opinion and it violates it and the Protestant Reformation was really devoted to some paradoxes where they couldn't explain everything they were errors of a Scholastic tradition which in a sense explained everything I don't mean an error arrogantly but Aristotelian a you had a cause and effect and you could figure it out but the Protestant Reformation in Switzerland the Netherlands Germany and eventually elsewhere dealt very much with paradox sample for Martin Luther who's going to be the main figure in my talk the paradox is God is in his language Dale's absconded to us you could have the word absconding the hidden God is the same God who is the revealed God and Luther and all of them spent very much time as this definition said try to make sense of the world in which not all this makes sense that's the one side of the paradox the other was Davis rebel Otto's God reveals God's self and that was seen to be a part of all the religions and much philosophy that was God Davis absconded us hidden and God rebel ATO is revealed since we're on a Latin jag I'll carry one step further and say what did the earliest Protestant Reformation particularly in its Luther version how did you find the human always extremes that my introduction spoke of well the formula the official formula for Luther and the tradition was that the human being is symbol as in simultaneous at the same time simul justice may just keep on being just and packet or sinner and these go with you all your life you're never beyond them and the religionists are trying to make sense of the two so we could find a pattern between them that was how they framed it five hundred years ago I think it still is that way the center of it was referred to an introduction of that I'm a part of I've now written I learned this week 1000 columns for them and I think there are one religion and public life and everyone has to wrestle with precisely that I live in a republic of people that is are they're very different from each other and they're in different occupations and they have to make things in common sometimes as citizens sometimes this partisan sometimes as club members sometimes in religious organizations but they're busy making sense of it another key word in the words I read before from the Commission is the imagination the purpose of the humanities is to stimulate our imagination so we might be able to picture what it'd be like to be some one else somewhere else anybody who looks through the booklet of the festival this year will find that several hundred of them deal with just that stimulating our imagination that we need a more rich life the Reformation picked the biggest of all the things namely how to deal with the Catholic tradition of God and the human there were only a few of them at first there were few I used to say monks but I've learned they were friars they weren't monks hanging out in a couple of monasteries and today 1.8 billion people are called Protestant somehow along the way all having to wrestle with this God they've talked about well there's also a paradox for the same God comes to them in justice and mercy and the scriptures of all the religions but the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian scriptures regularly talk about God as powerful almighty just and terrifying and the other part of the paradox is the same God is perceived by the same people also as being full of mercy what does that have to do with November of 500 years later if you study Luther or almost anybody who was involved in the Reformation there were people who were guilt ridden God was too close to them God was too vivid to them and they had to make sense of that along the way now and then I'm asked what's difference between them and now when I say many of these issues today are different because instead of terror and grace and Lee we have indifference we have indifference to many of the canons of citizenship any elements of learning that could be our way and many things about our own career and vocation and hopes indifference the statistics will confirm that's a fundamental thing of Millennials many of them don't care about this of that particular in their destiny they're going to live for now that is not a new invention talking about the young that way somebody said if you like the Adam and Eve story write him they were already talking about their kids and how the other generation was going to pop but in the era were talking about this God hidden and revealed deals with humans were capable justice and mercy how are they going to negotiate how will they navigate what's to go on well any of you who know anything about the history will know that the main instrument officially from 3:29 to writing the US Constitution first amendment always tied together the civil order and the religious order didn't make any difference you could reform you start a new religion and make it a difference Islam does the same and almost every case a religion is not a person on his or her own but someone trying to make sense of things through some instrument and in the Protestant story it was the Catholic Europe and its main instrument the church Alfred North Whitehead the British philosopher once defined the Protestant Reformation in in terms of cut it down to size it's not that big a deal he says it was a family quarrel of northwest European People's and I think we still think I'm school to that that's it because most of our textbooks most of our art most of our images are out of that Northwest European people image white have said it didn't concern people east of Istanbul hundreds of millions of people through the years have been Christian in there neither torn by one side of the other because they weren't of the Church of the Roman obedience there were Byzantine and they de gauche eiated these things with different liturgies along the way but for them to the church really mattered the church was the main instrument of hope for people you got together faced the storms of the time you decided it's home to Mary and how to raise your children well your hopes for this life and life to come it all worked around that no I said from 329 or so till 1780s always the civil order and the religious order were together the Protestants by the way didn't change that very much some did people called Mennonites church to the Brethren Quakers there were others that didn't do that they opposed it there would be pacifists they wouldn't go along with a civil order which the vast majority of their fellow believers went with but for the rest its hand-in-glove inescapable inescapably when Martin Luther got in trouble he's supposed to worry about the Pope now he's worried about the Emperor why because the emperor can kill and they did often enough sadly when the Reformation came it didn't change that much in fact a lot of the reformed Protestants killed other reform process because they still had the power of the state behind them or rejected those didn't have the power of the state now how are you gonna negotiate this you gotta prove you're the right people you're doing the right thing you have it figured out and they're not we versus they us versus them the church is the main trans actor and what are you afraid of all your life the life to come hell I once gave the Ingersoll lectures at Harvard on immortality and my chosen topic was hell disappeared and no one noticed if you talk to seniors immigrant people or so on who came from a heavily religious culture they were very worried about it and it carried over in our own I lived in a little Empire called West Point Nebraska 2,500 people and always a bitch in stock was running going down lived across the alley at all she was Oh sixth grade it was really wonderful and one time in a school picnic she bent into a sandwich with meat in it on a Friday well that was the end of the picnic for her she ran up the hill the father both said cause she had a confess because we all believed she believed that if she would die with Unforgiven sins she would go to hell that was culture wide phenomenon now every religion school found different ways to moderate it to temper it and yet that was always the big thing how did they do that in the Germany in 1517 well we've got to bring in the churches the strongest institution and it had projects for example it's building st. Peter's still the largest church in the Christian world and the boat needed funds for it and Italy was in a kind of a little moment economically whereas the Northern Europeans were just learning all about how to deal with colonies and their wealth and so on and so they were there for the picking how'd he get it out of them theoretically and in a broad sense it was to be charitable donations every church would have a little poor box you would have things well you gather things for people along the way but the church now needed much more and dug up some relatively obscure teachings about purgatory that there are ways to shorten your time there in that very uncomfortable place getting yourself ready for the time when you be brought into paradise or heaven okay how do you get them will you get them so good works you can do charities you could be regular and attending a church you can do all that but that didn't do all of it what they figured out was this is really a saleable item and they have the very familiar project called the indulgences you would buy that little piece of paper they're all available I was over at the NuvaRing library the other day they have an exhibit of that time and you could see an indulgence to see exactly what it is you paint so much and you get 2,000 fewer years in purgatory or three hundred or three and the super salesman among them was Johannes Tetzel a Dominican monk who had his own at a rhyme it preserves through the ages in German but I'll translate the minute the coin into the basket rings so out of purgatory jumps well Martin Luther was brought up in that as for all the other Augustinians and all the other monks around him but the common people were beginning to resent this it's obviously easy to corrupt it whatever good intentions were there was soon obscured and Luther in the monastery starts reading up on it and when I made the distinction between a monk and a friar the monks were cloistered they had to stay in the building the Friars could go out and salute meet the common people he could preach out there he could go door-to-door if he wanted to and he and others like him had a good ear for what was bothering people and what bother them was the resentment but you had a pay for what was supposed to be a free gift from God and that people were plundering their fellow Germans and other places to you pay along the way Luther a very very complex person he's a regular subject of movies and plays and psychiatric and psychoanalytic studies you get a whole liberal library of that and you could write encyclopedia just look at all the things that shook him up and he had an experience along the way one day with a bolt of lightning that sent him in a monastery and then he had some time later he has experience of reading the letters of Paul the Apostle to the Romans and other such letters now these were available they were part of the whole Catholic world but they were a little necessary less necessary in the system that we're talking about if they're a little less necessary you can neglect them along the way what do you do about it a lot of people just relaxed I thought somebody in difference pour WH Auden once wrote a poem called Martin Luther sonnet and the last two lines are the just shall live by faith he cried in dread and men were glad who never trembled in their you soul lives he's still bought into the system he had no choice but you weren't religious geniuses like Luther and the top Catholic saints and others who really worried about it wrote books about it and live with it the more he studied it the more it bothered him and he decided to take some action now the action he took would be it wouldn't even make tomorrow morning's papers if it happened in our city he wrote some theses if you would visit any University of Chicago and look at the bulletin board you will see just every kind of thing I was starting to teach back in them early vietnam war days and our bulletin boards rarely talked about the academics was almost although they should everybody had faeces and no throat some two ninety five to be exact this was the key thing shamelessly ahold of a book called Martin e Marty October 31st 1517 Martin Luther and the day that changed the world was a foreword by James Martin SJ Jesuit Horseman it's a book I wrote by accent I had written my publishers that I'm not gonna write any more books I'm not going to and Along Came the papacy and the Lutheran World Federation to have a joint series of things and they needed text for it so what I write what Lutheran's and other Protestants think of today's Catholic Church which is very very different from the Catholic Church of 1517 and Cardinal Kasper of Germany was to write the Catholic version of what Catholics think of other Protestants from saying I'm so sorry but the Pope named me to the top commissioned and allowed to do this anymore so I wrote the publisher send me the mascot back thirty three thousand words I can always farm it out as magazine articles and the focus is not on your life we're gonna make a book out of it so it's a skinny little book because it's only half a book but it hit at the right moment and there was a big celebration Uppsala Sweden where the Pope who was very friendly to non Catholics and the Archbishop of Sweden he'll join services together you may have seen it on television because it's the first time we know that the Pope held a joint meeting like this or like this with a woman since the archbishop was in church in Sweden as a woman and what were they celebrating were these 95 theses by the Augustinian friar who is nervous about what's happening what's interesting about them is he's taking for granted that the Pope wants these theses and he mails them to the Archbishop of Mainz who's sort of his spiritual director Niki dear Archbishop you're gonna be glad you're I'm on your side if we're gonna straighten up this corrupt thing that's not how it worked they were not real happy with it the first thesis was the key one and it was supposed to mark parson ISM ever since and I hope it still does the first of the 95 theses was when our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said repents He willed that the entire world of Christians would always repent that doesn't sound like much I grew up in that little Church in West Point Nebraska and I dreaded repentance days some of you Jews may have double views about it's very profound and beautiful and we would even sing in that spirit repenting this might end the scholar manifesto presentation when Elektra sings we would sing so Lorne myself with gladness leave behind almost and sadness 15 verses of that and you're a little kid hurry that you don't really want that that's what repentance is supposed to be well that was the call so flavor that it took on but it didn't see what was supposed to do in some of the later theses Luther says the problem is all you have to do is repent Catholic scholar that much devoted to his recently written on this and said that the world repent in the Greek Macedonia and sue the Hebrew behind it really asks for a change of heart whatever way you're going whatever is burdening you if you're burdened by these demands and laws of God and my own fears you have a change of heart and you get good news along the way by the way by little singing exhibition which was my Killa festival we should go there are very many Lutheran Catholic marriages and were members of a Lutheran Church and we have no members and I remember once in a class a bride who would brought up Catholic and joins a Lutheran Church and somebody the class asked her what's it like what he explained all your relatives a Catholic and how your Lutheran what do you tell them what what are the rules what do they do oh I come there are the Lutheran's they're the people that sing all fifteen verses of all the long hymns but it's also part of their glory because that's where you get Bach cantatas and great music of that era what are these cc's about grace freedom along the way when people ask me is there something of Martin Luther's that they should read how did I recommend a little little book he wrote in 1520 called the freedom of a Christian I said before he liked to do in paradox God hidden God revealed here's the paradox of a Christian freedom Luther wrote a Christian is a perfectly free Lord of all subject to none as far as he's concerned that's it and paradoxically the Christian is perfectly a dutiful servant to all subject to all no that doesn't make sense and yet it does make sense because that's the two things that people were called to do one to have true freedom the church can't make you do this civil civil order and religious things can't make you do this and on the other hand you are to be driven to be very active in the world I think the part of person is that because it's better than the Luthor's or the Calvinists the reformed Presbyterian and so on where there's much more accent on working things out along the way you could picture with fun Luther's have with their beer and that first part free Lord of all other Protestants liqueur and HL Mencken's image of the Puritan British someone who has a haunting fear that someone somewhere might be happy but out of that came the background for many of our laws many of our freedoms most of the founders were enlightenment people of reformed background with passing background and they know that they were free of all but they were also to be servant of all now where did he get this sort of the process get it where do they still get it huge libraries are full Martin Luther died in his sixties and got a late start as a monk but his collected writings you couldn't find them in any library here come to 150 volumes double column a single space 10-point type no it isn't that he sat there with his typewriter all the time it's rather that he was a celebrity and everywhere he went they took down everything he said some good raunchy and I've seen he wasn't above that that's what that's how monks talk back then because they were used to that at the monastery and went over very well in the German villages and all that is there but I think there several volumes Nicole's Table Talk Tisch Radin well let's go with everything and that's a that's always the bestseller among seminarians they like to see all that stuff the earnestness with which he confessed under a wonderful man you honest opens his always Stian confessor and what do you how can you sin in the monastery all the time it could be pretty imaginative to figure out something for confession but Luther would confess five six hours of the time well stop it says nodding anyone said to him Martin you don't have to confess every fart which was liberating to little sir I suppose where did he get this different concept Luther and his colleagues John Huss in the Czech world Wickliffe in the English world seven ruler and the Italian world wherever it was they were all getting new access to the Bible now the Bible always had been there it's the root of every Catholic liturgy and instruction but pretty printing press who ever saw one being one in the monastery library and maybe one and a vestry but that would be it nobody would see it and it was very valuable book so it was often chained and Protestants like to show that when Luther came they broke those chains because of the Catholics they chained their Bible to hello they didn't said somebody wouldn't steal it but now once it's taking over Luther it's on the scene forty years or so after Gutenberg and everything took off and he was a genius at mass media of communication most of his books were little pamphlets cuz he could get them out in a big hurry and cheaply I don't have all the statistics handy but they're easy to get how many libraries lists how many pages the Luther and his colleagues turned up this suddenly became the base and it was a big part of what anybody in the humanities should care about it was a great spreader of literacy every child had have a little catechism and memorize it everybody wanted their own Bible in their own home they're the arguments they're the theses along the way and that but is this revolution of course those who got in trouble for this and they had had hidden him in the Wartburg castle which you could still visit and what you got to do here there all the time he translated the Hebrew Scriptures into German others had done it but it hasn't caught on but his sermons Bible is too little bit German what Shakespeare is to England he took English language he took the things that in the air put it together delicately poetically and so on other innovations I'm getting near closing time he did away with the formal priesthood that only certain people could be in on these things no anybody could confess their sins and anybody could forgive the sins of others and they should and his word for that was a priesthood of all believers which is a very big theme in Protestantism along the way it took his part in shaping democracies in England and Central Europe and eventually therefore its errors in America he had great interest in getting the word out beyond Prince I mentioned Bach and music Luther wrote many songs hymns great day this morning I heard a mighty fortress is our God in mental zones death symphony the Reformation symphony people like that we're writing these hymns all the time in visual arts they weren't as good as the Catholic say they remember yeah yeah but for the most part they were kind of didactic they didn't have the fun of Renaissance Catholic art you know spread it and now how he go to govern well you had a good allies there was no Germany Germany was hundreds of little provinces and Lutheran would often talk about the world he met Saxony just one of these provinces and I think they didn't know kriti really quite how to run it this priesthood of all believers and so you have a great deal of warfare warfare along the way the downside I should close with some of the downsides here I'm pied one right there the Reformation open the door to and led to Wars you were talking many many thousands of people now it's not a clear pattern at the end of the 30 Years War which grew out of this the two fighting groups were both Catholic but in general it was a take off in war at a time when you're learning new things about ballistics prejudices and I can't leave spirits without coming to the one that has all the conscience of everybody who thinks about it Luther started out as a friend of Jews when he's translating the Hebrew Scriptures he need to learn the words and he go to the Jewish puts her and learn what that sinew is a calf was and that got into his Bible along the way and he wasn't provoked there was no reason for him to be an eddy Semitic they like to say aunty Judaic but he was and the great frustration came he was convinced that when people would get to the Bible itself to the writings of Paul to the South teaches about grace they would get to that they would all believe the Catholic Church and join the Evangelical Lutheran reform movements and very few did and that may have been a big part of this rage of a cirno's his writings anti-jewish are obscene he was far gone by that is mentality but it's inexcusable we Lou furnace and other processes don't ask communicate people but if you show up in a seminary and turn out any Semitic you'll be excommunicated he'll be out of the way why because some years ago my words are the terrible things that happened with Holocaust and so on it became a universal impulse to repent to a change of heart that has to be followed up with different kinds of actions and that's exactly what started to happen different kinds of actions so today's Protestant world is not tidy I read somewhere recently that there are 43,000 Protestant sects there used to be a document called the yellow pages I don't know if it still exists but it had a religion section and if you really want to find all of them you could find eight different kinds of Mennonite and 15 kinds of Presbyterian and all that was unstoppable why because you would read the Bible and you would come to a you know conclusions about it you didn't read all you were at all pioneers you're all entirely on your own deidre bono for the great anti-nazi our century once said Christ exists as congregation not in congregation Paul said that the church is the body of Christ and this lives on in every such community so any reform always has to take the that in mind and that's why the impulse to continue reforming often leads to pettiness but this is if you want to find out what one person thinks of another in the wrong group ask them and you'll get some vituperation and ignorance and so on which means therefore and this is the slogan semper reformed and the church always is in the process of what has to be reforming and I've collected from email this past few months as Protestants and almost every city carries on and repentance is for me the highlight this year was the service at Holy Name Cathedral beside it over by garland supa peach delicately honest and the Lutheran bishop of this area and we we sang a mighty fortress as loud as Lulu sing alone even though half the people who were Catholic because that's the final word the Reformation is going on now in Catholicism too and in 1999 Lutheran's and Catholics having spent 30 years studying the Bible together came up with a document of a common agreement about the teaching justification by faith which is a cold word for the heart of what Luther was about the just person but it was not by works or paying a bill but works by faith and that spread of faith in Catholic documents especially since that akin to and and almost all the other groups suggest that's what it's supposed to be about now and some days we see evidence that it is I think that I probably quit two minutes early which is good because I'd love to have given take and some questions please we have a couple of microphones people so ladies and gentlemen if you have any questions please raise your hand we will come to you with Mike and when we get to you please stand thank you very much for your talk most enlightening quick question would you say the Catholics and Lutheran's are perhaps closer together now than the Lutheran's and other Protestant denominations like the Presbyterians or Calvinists and in doctrine or basic bottom line feeling about what it takes to get to heaven in general the great mass of presence what do you call me my Protestants for example are very close to each other common documents in common worship and I was committee on working with there was a shortage and now without any claptrap call a Presbyterian to be their pastor vice versa and so on that was unheard of until a few years ago and you can't have that without some strong measures of agreement along the way the ecumenical movement really hurried along by pope john xxiii they've gone through numbers of organizations World Council of Churches and so on they don't beat down the rough edges so how do people great conviction go their own way and in America the great numbers of Protestants are now like evangelical which people all the way from standoffish fundamentalists to pretty well mainstream people some of my own favorite commentators are evangelicals and the political order so it's very messy but in general I'm never never on foreign territory when I'm speaking in a Catholic Church look as a convention now and vice versa sometimes we correct each other along the way I was to dedicate an organ in st. Cecilia Church in Omaha Nebraska I believe in mercy so I didn't play the I've talked to the bells play and they thought it'd be fun in the afternoon to have invited in 40 Lutheran medicine 40 Catholic priests and a wonderful Catholic you medical MOOC was my partner and just before he was asked the question in walks the Archbishop of Omaha a hardliner and Maya Domenico Catholic friend trembled the next question was how can you ever talk about them because they don't believe in transubstantiation and so on and he said well you know when you read the documents it's very different I think they see some very Catholic things but they say it more clearly body and blood of Jesus are in the in the bread and wine you get it with the bread and wine and it's under the signs of the bread and wine we don't get nearly that goes to it and the Archbishop's talked out of there and I don't know whatever happened to my monk friend you could tell I like the messiness of this it's not so bordered next question yes the afternoon Marty Marty what would Calvin have said about Luther and if they were contemporaries and if they weren't then what would Luther have said about Calvin well Luther and Calvin had some many basic differences fundamentally they both were very sure of classification by faith and grace and the Bible more anchored there but it's it's like academic disputes it gets very fine line of stuff and it's an age of a to operation and so on I think Calvin's probably friendlier to Luther than Luther was to Calvin Calvin was a more ordered thinker as Luther is all over the place Calvin wrote the book called the Institute's of the Christian religion very recent thought-through thing and it was a lot easier to get along but and personality differences still but we don't worry much about that anymore that was how it was then I'm brother Joe Ruiz I'm an Augustinian friar and I teach at one of our high schools in Chicago theology mainly and I have a question because I'm just learning about st. Augustine and his theology and wondered if if any did st. Augustine's theology impact Luther's own theology if you know good good good well you've seen one of those terribly terrible people right there he's and I was sitting in fryer what for exactly would have exhale you Luther was an Augustinian and he never went beyond that after the writings of the Apostle Paul Augustine was his main source because the question wrote so many exegesis interpretations of the Bible and even he was really this very similar could say who stole it from him this drastic thing between God's law and God's grace that's at the heart of the Augustinian theme and I read a lot of Augustine and I often think I'm I'm reading Luther because Luther plagiarized a good deal of that that strong contrast between what is the human being without God and then with and if there was a sample that or got since confessions which you can come by and other still bookstores any bookstore would have classics and there was August's confessions interesting because he's doing it and also learned from this what are the confessions that's a long letter he's writing God he's telling what what's going on between us and that mode of discourse remained so hurrah for the Augustinians and the Jesuits I got an endorsement Jessie when I better like them too I read some Musical and economic analysis of the Reformation among other things the fact that the Catholic Church owned 25% of the land in Germany at the time the Reformation and therefore the income from that land as well and that the reason the Reformation took off as models it did was that the princes in Germany were using Luther as a lever to gain back the economic incomes to themselves from the from the church a comment on that yeah I think of that issue was if the church was such a big property holder many many areas in in England five six of the property was in the hands of the church until Henry the eighth's came on so what are you going to do with all that economic problems right off I didn't have time for to my lecture but Luther was a friar and he got married which was really really something well what are you gonna do how you gonna take all these people who have been living off stuff and out of their pastors of Protestant churches what do you how will they make it work Luther helped smuggle 12 young nuns out of a convent and arranged marriages eleven of them right away and it was one left over and he'd lined up and she doesn't like the guy in line up with so he married her so that's how far some clergy started getting it but they had to learn economics here again I have to say the Calvinists more known for doing this what's often called the Protestant ethic it's often based on Calvinist seems the energy used to do in pleasing God you now put to work for accumulating and shirring was what was supposed to be and I think that's been a big part of the of the personal world it's interesting when you see what's happening in the Protestant world today it went south I was in Finland a couple years ago Finland is 90 it is 98 percent Lutheran and 2 percent ever goes to church and it's gonna Navy in general you know it's like because that's a state Church it was all taken care of and that that was it and and where did it go today make a list of the nominal that is on the books Lutheran's of the world still Germany is the highest second is Sweden can you guess number 3 Tanzania 4th Ethiopia 6 India 7th Indonesia 9th USA we're way down there so an unstoppable surge of people from this is a new thing that's coming that way and they organize their lives that way and it's probably closer to what the 16th century was like that without all they were divided and they're sticking to these same central themes they're very biblical America something Brazil is the only place especially and you get in a village in Brazil everybody's got a Bible and they're all quoting and so I'm singing hymns so it it shifts dr. Marty following the 1999 covenant that was signed and other ecumenical activities that have taken place between the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran bodies has the original excommunication of dr. Luther been lifted or addressed in any way no they don't they don't they don't hate Luthor anymore and you attack him anymore but the problem with excommunication is not the experts the communication the remaining things and about in the book what's preventing the total merger of these is that is a sacramental life bosses agree with Catholics on the meaning of baptism they dropped a lot of these sacraments that were seven but the big one is the mass and communion and that's what they're having such a hard time formulating a common way at Vatican two I sinned about one day I was at Mass I'd always heard there anywhere in the world Catholics were the same because they use Latin Mass and they were air all the same everywhere well that day the mass was in Congolese seminarians in leopard skins and chanting and oh this is different so I thought well they must be breaking some rules so when it came time to go to communion well I got bread from the Pope himself which is a breach of ecumenical conduct and I never felt better but I do believe in the church is working these things out I don't believe in chaos but I think very often concentration camps Catholics and Protestants would commune together and many a priest would break the rules in order to do it and somebody said well we don't do it because we're not in such hard circumstances but some days I look at our culture and say maybe it wouldn't be bad if we did that but I don't think they have to have a formal drop there are some people making a move that Martin Luther should be a saint and Martin Luther King should be a saint these lines are so creatively blurry now but formal actions are harder to get and Pope Francis makes all kinds and forward moves and then guess by the bookkeepers you could tell I'm a fan anymore I just have a question about resistance and men like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin niemoller leading up to the Second World War and into the second wall in the Holocaust I'm wondering what you think how they drew from Martin Luther's thinking and theology in ways that maybe other Lutheran's at the time weren't I hope I'm hearing all parts of it but if you take the concentration camp model so the best documents we have from the concentration camps Dachau in particular the people in prison were pretty much half Catholic and have in German music on – dealers include the reformed and Martin niemöller the best-known he'd been a u-boat captain in Berlin it was a very famous one and I got the cardinal and then they broke the rules now in the end they're gonna be killed the next day and this is the most profound thing they could think of doing so the concentration camps help as far as resistance Hitler was concerned well very sad story because an awful lot of people in higher positions went over in simpler life it shot past a lot of people I once was looking at my mother's side of the family was North German and we had a rented car our four sons and we dropped in on somebody with the guy's a tavern said you has the same last name on your mother's side well they're everywhere and he has to be figured out my mother and this woman would have been second cousin third cousin something like that and we walked in and there on the piano it's a picture guy with a swastika on his and my son's looked at that I thought what in the world are we doing and then you start talking to them she had never been more than sixty kilometers from her home she didn't know anything I was I've talked with her son so she lost one son yeah it was shot down and at least him I really I've been fighting for that sis she had never known it and then that afternoon they took us around to that town where there's a British soldiers cemetery and they said this woman every year since a cemetery started Sunday takes a bouquet and puts the grave of another young man trying to picture what his mother went through I think that that's very often what happened I'm not justifying that most people are not well this is all happening the ideology was very profoundly anti-christian and yet a lot of people wish things went along with it so it's the great sad story of that century and that's enough of it carries over new forms in our own so borrowing from the Calvinists ecclesia semper reform under the church always has to be in the process of being reformed so I have a half a minute ago I should say this is my last Queen centennial of the Reformation lecture my wife reminded me some years ago the bicentennial of the nation I gave a lecture at the White House in the the Clintons had a series on the millennia and then again the next day I had a lecture as a law school at Georgetown and this was when President Clinton was being probed and one of the law professor said Mr Marty you have a great interest in moral standards how could you give a speech in that man's White House and I said well I remember this but my wife did it so I I always pay attention to what she says that number one I went because they invited me number two is my kind of topic over history and religion three I'm not likely to get invited on the third meinem and fourth when the White House invites you you go that was easy to say then for me that it would be now but thanks for coming [Applause]

Posted by Lewis Heart

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