Make American Straight Again? Part 4 | Atheist Vanguard with Derek, Jamie, & Christy Powell

Posted By on July 22, 2019

hello and welcome to a special episode of the Atheist Vanguard I'm Jamie Boone and to my right regular viewers will recognize derek hawk of atheist vanguard that leaders you know and in my left we have special guest christy Powell how you doing today Christy hey not too bad Christy you're involved with the ACA in that you are the host of secular sexuality and you've been involved with us for a few months why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in what your involvement entails yeah absolutely so I do host a secular sexuality every Thursday at 7:00 check us out but you know coming from the outside I guess from what I understand there was just talk of wanting to do a show about gender and sexuality and feeling like if there's one thing that religion definitely gets its hands in in almost every person it is specifically those types of issues and so they were interested in looking and doing a show about gender and sexuality and so they were looking for a sex therapist and I happened to be one with valence counseling and so they tracked me down and you know initially that was kind of it that was my involvement with the ACA was coming in and doing that show every week but over the past year is I've you know had a chance to join the Facebook groups to be on discord to get to know people I've really fallen in love with the you know the community parts of the Atheist community of Austin oh well I'm glad you're feeling a part of the community okay thanks for having me and Derek I didn't leave you out how are you doing I'm doing really good how are you doing I'm doing I'm doing marvelously I think yeah okay I can't complain well I can but I won't and at least right now right now if as soon as we're done that's all money Lord you're gonna hit your novel so this is a part of the continuing series where we break down parts of a phone interview that our producer got with Pastor Tommy McMurtry of the new independent fundamentalist Baptist Church before we get into our next clip though I'd like to read a brief statement from been as deville our producer I been aestivum by interviewing a pastor of the NIF B movement in no way intend to endorse the views or values expressed in the interview my intent for this interview is to gather the statements and views of Pastor McMurtry and the NIF B movement so that they can be discussed and responded to I believe the best way to achieve real change is through civil conversation we should combat ideas not people and with that unless producer is about to tell me that I've forgotten something let's roll the first clip do you think the LGBT community has made a choice to go down that road or do you think people are just born the way they're born and these are the actions that they're taking because it's natural because they've they've been born that way or do you think it's selfish to know they were not born that way so they need to have it yes they absolutely we're not born that way you know because we call them reprobates a lot you know you'll hear you'll hear me use the term reprobate when talking about a reprobate is someone who has rejected the one tree of a reprobate you see throughout the Bible is these were people who knew the truth it says in Romans 1:18 so so the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness none righteous the men who hold the truth in unrighteousness because that which may be known of God is manifest in them for God has showed it unto them and I'm not gonna read that whole passage to you but every legitimate LGBT not everyone who identifies as that but everyone who is an actual full-blown sodomite is somebody who knew the truth at one point in their life and they rejected it every member of the LGBT community is somebody who God loved at one time God wanted to save God died and he paid for every one of their sins but in some point in their life and I can't possibly know when this was they rejected God and then God rejected them and the Bible says God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient so as a result of whatever wickedness and it could be it could be any number of things that they were involved with that caused them to reject God but whatever it was part of their punishment is God kind of took away that natural instinct we have for example it is completely natural for you and me if we put our hand on a hot stove to immediately move our hand away because it burns that damages us you and you and I we are we're going to just naturally pull away from something like that well reprobate it they don't have that they desire to do things that are harmful that's why you have many people who cut themselves that's not normal you know they're they're abusive with themselves they've Bible calls of abusers of themselves with mankind they they do things that are repulsive you and I are naturally repulsed as the site of poop you know we don't we don't want to be anywhere near that but when someone's given over to a reprobate mind they now desire things that are harmful things that are repulsive to normal people and same-sex you know activity is repulsive to the normal man and woman but because they've been given over to a reprobate mind something that causes diseases something that is gross something that causes great harm it's actually attractive to these people and that is part of their that is part of their punishment for rejecting God so they were not born that way that is a lie they still haven't discovered the gay gene and they never will because there's no such thing when a touchy have advanced and they sounds like you think they're rebels wow there's a there's a lot to unpack there I don't know Derek do you want to start us off yeah um there's so many so much wrong with what's going on there this is the type of thinking that I grew up with that's meant that made me lead to spending majority of my life hating myself I was born this way I've always felt this way and I grew up loving Jesus I love Jesus with all my heart but it was these feelings that were embedded that with me that made me question everything even my own relevance in life before and after I came out my hand burnt on a stove there's no change in that um it's just really sad and just really it hurts my heart to hear people still think this way still think about people like all of us yeah I have to say this is not my first time listening to this clip but it definitely hit me you know a little bit like sitting in this video sitting with you two good folks and just recognizing how incredibly hurtful whole lot of that language is now I mean we can respond to the ideas and and the facts of what he says and the truth of all of that but I think it is worth taking just a brief moment to acknowledge how that that resonates emotionally to hear that kind of language discussed about about you know me myself but then so many people that I love I hear where you're coming from yeah yeah it's it's certainly this level of us them sort of uttering rank because you know in a previous clip actually in a previous episode but you should go back and watch if you haven't seen he talks about not encountering and avoiding you know any interactions with you know in his words homos which just deepens the divide the the separation that he has between it you know LGBTQIA folks and it enables more of this sort of cycle of like oh yeah thinking of people as something other than people like you because they're different and they're given over to a reprobate mind I've been saved by God so it's entirely different so of course you know as he's talked about before like we have a unique opportunity here to really like what Christy was saying to really address the ideas and not the people because in the past any type of these conversations would end up in an epic cussing match and right now we have an audience right now I'm speaking to the people of this church and of the leader of this church whereas I'm not much different from you I love life I love people I find poop gross – I these ideas these feelings were there they were put there by me why some God I don't know I don't and doesn't really matter what matters is is that I was not given this choice like you were given a choice to become a Christian this isn't totally not apples oranges it's totally different and if you are on a mandate to become more christ-like there needs to be compassion there needs to be a willingness to understand each other and eventually acceptance we can't come on go along this path anymore of of just labeling somebody as a degenerate and gross I understand that there's things about other cultures that are different there are things about the gay culture that make me uncomfortable and I'm still working through this as my friend here has witnessed I'm a prude but still it's compassion it's compassion it's Christ like Christ said he you know when when I came did you welcome me if when I was in prison did you visit me when I was hungry did you feed me not you know if I had a list did you stone me yeah mm-hmm yeah yeah writing off just 10 20 90% of the population depending on you know where you throw out a line or what he you know he finds acceptable but you know as we as we kind of dive in and start to break all of this down it does become incredibly apparent that he just doesn't experience or spend time around gay folks because a lot of his argument starts to fall apart I mean whether we look at homosexuality whether we look at queerness or ever we want to label it as moral immoral right wrong and different it simply just doesn't work the way that he's discussing it he talks about people at some point in their life making a choice so let's start off with the question of whether or not an infant whether a young child is able to make that choice and at what point sort of the age of accountability as a term that a lot of modern day Christians use to kind of conceptualize that concept of being able to choose God or being able to choose sin getting to a certain point where you have the opportunity to make those decisions I don't know where the age of accountability starts I don't know that they're that there is one I mean it's kind of this really nebulous concept but if he's suggesting that there's a choice involved ostensibly that choice would happen it at some point in your lifetime and not universally around you know 12 to 15 when your sexuality starts to kind of kick in right right so there are I mean I have heard so many scared parents who come to my counseling practice or different things who are worried that their kid might be queer in some way and you know with the folks that I work with that's generally a all I'm so concerned about their experience growing up it's not from a please fix them but I've seen that too and so it makes me wonder why there are so many parents of a 5 6 7 8 year-old usually it's a little boy who is behaving in feminine ways and freaking out his dad that's a very common thing but why would that happen if this child hadn't already made the choice to reject God forever right right so that file is very confusing to me and it also makes me wonder why you don't have more people who are 55 70 all of a sudden rejecting God and becoming gay that's not to say that there aren't folks who wait until that time in their life to come out or to suggest that sexuality isn't somehow or to some level fluid but more and more as we have this increasingly welcoming society you don't see that last minute deathbed after 60 years of marriage type of coming-out experience and that kind of story and even in those incidences with those people you very rarely will find anybody who says oh yeah no I just became gay last week you know I've been straight straight straight straight and then I was just really pissed off at God and now I love sucking I love having sex with men I want to be respectful to our audience and so just that that life cycle really doesn't hold up regardless of whether homosexuality is right wrong or anything else what he's describing just doesn't resonate with the experience of any gay person I've ever met in my life and we see the opposite actually where's you have somebody who is protest partitioned against the gay community gay rights and comes out to be gay themselves and usually on some controversial back backroom back yeah after having been kind of forced out in some controversy yeah I mean that's I don't want to get too ahead of your esoteric about all this but it really broke my heart is he's talking about self-harm and in these different things because what he clearly doesn't understand is that self interest behavior cutting doing these different things is usually a way of releasing pain you know you cause physical pain as a way of helping your body to sort of mirror what's going on mentally it's a way of self soothing you know that sounds very counterintuitive but it's a reality it's self soothing and you know certainly dangerous and concerning and not generally healthy behavior and want to acknowledge that very firmly but it's a defense mechanism that people who are hurting utilize and they are often hurting because of this self-hatred because of this internalized homophobia because of this kind of rhetoric right and he's saying it's actually a symptom more of what side effect were my part of a punishment from God yeah yeah I mean people don't cut themselves because they're gay people gay people cut themselves because of our society because of the things that we say to them because of the things that are coming from pulpits and everywhere else yeah well there's that and then there's sort of two other parts of this that I think of what pastor McMurtry is saying that don't really match with reality which is one there are gay folks in that we're never Christian that never knew God at all and they're gay so we had the opportunity to unreached people's and these different sort of if it's a punishment from God that doesn't comport with the things that he says about mm-hmm God that he believes in there's also almost the mirror image of that which is that why are there non-believers that are not gay right Matt is straight and was you know he got saved and he's out there being straight and attracted to women and not men but why is it that only some people only some sinners about to be gay yes yes only only some people that reject God's love that knew it in the way that Pastor McMurtry knows it only some sinners receive this punishment god unevenly meats out justice which would be imperfect justice it the hypothesis if you will of pastor McMurtry's description of the way the world works doesn't match the way the world works it's not an accurate description of reality can I bring up one more point that kind of find it interesting was that so we are all given the tree according to Tommy and Romans we are all given the truth by God and that we find everything similarly discussing a repulsive when it comes to same-sex and whatnot as far as I know I might be you know reaching out but a lot of street guys like lesbian porn yeah that was actually something I was gonna mention as well I love the lesbian porn yeah and we can dive into some of the complexities of that but it's couched in this idea that people are naturally going to be repulsed by the things that are bad for them right and and this is the perfect example of the naturalistic fallacy this idea that because poop smells bad that it's it's morally wrong and yeah we do understand that our bodies have evolved and survived long enough to reproduce because of these certain feelings of disgust disgust is a part of our natural order of our body if something is going to make us sick we likely don't enjoy the smell of it the taste of it these different things however as evolves creatures as thinking discerning wise human beings we have a responsibility to do more than just use the ik factor as an understanding of how we should treat one another because by his rationale we should also be repulsed by and shunning people with physical disabilities people who have a skin color that's different from our experiences what we've been raised by I mean there's overwhelming scientific evidence that so it shows that our guts frankly have shits for brains and according to Tommy in a past episode kids with mental and emotional disabilities as well yeah I'm stoned and did you ever see the it was a it was a news release from Africa where they were actually one of the officials was and this is before they made homosexuality illegal they were actually campaigning for death and life imprisonment and he had a PI scream and he was talking about gay sex and he was I had a chocolate ice cream cone he is like they think they they licked the poopoo and he's imitating it this is the this is kind of the same type of irrational and hateful thinking of what homosexuality is I know a lot of I've known a lot of people that were extremely passionate and sexual but had no intercourse whatsoever just like regular sex you know there's that there's a connection that we all have with each other whether they be male or female and it's just whether you want to label it some spiritual love connection so later what not but we all have it we all experience it just like people experience the Holy Spirit I experienced it with certain stories with certain uplifting tales of heroes and heroines and we all have that it's just there so we're so alike but we direct these these prejudices get in a way and they direct us into such totally different pathways mm-hmm really sad yeah and and that touches on something else I wanted to highlight when he's talking he's dismissing this notion of being born gay because there's a lack of of a gay gene you know as he calls it which I have to say doing shows and doing this kind of work with the ACA for the last year I'm getting really exhausted having to explain to people that genetics is not just like a series of on-off switches and I tend to feel like people see the human genome as like a breaker box and it's just like turn this one on turn this one off but but Papa Papa and then you get a person at the end it is so much more complicated than that there is no gay gene that gets flipped on or flipped off in different people there is definitely evidence to suggest as we continually develop our understanding that there is some genetic concordance which is to say that when you look at somebody's genome there is a certain likelihood of their orientation but it is so much more complex than that there's no a single gene there is clusters of thousands of different gene sequences that are involved on top of environmental factors particularly hormones in the womb all of these complexities I'm not a medical doctor I'm not a biologist or geneticist but then neither is he so my point here is simply that to look at scientists in 2019 or 1999 or 20 39 or whenever and say well because you haven't found the gay gene I don't believe that gays are natural is completely ignorant and misunderstands both genetics and ignores the overwhelming amount of information about same-sex attraction among other species among our own species it's just so much more complex than all that but if an into that though it becomes a choice and if it's if it's if it has to be a choice because God could not have created you incorrectly mm-hmm you as a gay person if if we are born this way we are created as a mistake we were created and destined to live a life of debauchery and we were created to go to hell because we chose this mm-hmm that's where it comes into that's where this line of think at least how I interpreted this line of thinking do we perfect God and cannot have created an imperfect individual because we are created in the image of God and Miley you know according to the Bible I don't believe in a God but that it that is the way the doctrine goes um what you something what you were talking about actually touches on one of the points that I think is incredibly valuable in responding to this which is that this is a church in a community that surrounds not just pastor McMurtry's church but the N I have beat a little larger Church which is that it's not just a specific rejection of that with scientists it's a just a rejection of any kind of validity of the outside world mm-hmm there is this inside and outside world and people that analyze and look at behavior in the way that it affects people have looked at the NFB and it starts to match up with the bite model actually kind of effectively the bite model of I forget the actual title but of deterrent it's used to determine and evaluate how much an organization comports with definitions of a cult mm-hm not a cult how much it seems like it is a cult yeah and it's this complete reduction of like I have the truth I had it I had it when I was studying a Bible at age 15 so outside you know knowledge isn't really a concept that's valid at all there isn't learning here there is an acceptance there's has closed a mind as you can get to things outside of church doctrine which I find as sort of an additional factor of this that is completely tragic what he said was interesting with it so we were given to knowledge and we've rejected the knowledge and therefore God has cursed us with this attraction to the hurtful and to the painful I mean I don't even particularly like roller coasters because they it's a lot of you know I guess thrilling stimuli and there's other things like be doing so to say that I'm attracted to things that actually hurt me nope you haven't been on the right roller coaster then I don't I don't even really like Heights that much either I deal with them now but you know I joined I joined the Air Force and I'm scared of heights go figure what did you do in that well okay automatic oh it's good for years Air Force let's see I was taking some extra notes yeah he also uses this word normal in past clips and past episodes and probably in the next episode as well if I'm remembering it correctly but it's just an idea of like like you said the gut response yeah solidified in well no the Bible says is I'm correct as an author I love the using the term normal because there's so much what direction can go with it my definition of normal as I've written in one of my stories was normal is what everybody else is and you are not mmm yeah it's err consideration and yeah I think there is a lot to be said about the sort of insular nature of the culture and I think a lot of his ideas come from this notion of his experiences so I think that that's really worth diving into I think the next clip even sort of sets that up a little bit better if we want to do that before we talk I think about these ideas I just wanted to make sure that we touched everything on on on this clip well actually before we go on so I can't remember specifically when because there's a lot of churches in the NFP but more recently than this interview Tommy McMurtry was preaching and said that he hopes that you know LGBTQIA folks feel depressed and you know put upon by the world as a bad phrase to the point where they do become suicidal and do actually kill themselves I believe he said that he wished that God would what oppress the gay community with depression and feelings of self-loathing to a point where they would kill themselves so the modern day God doesn't use locusts but instead uses clinical depression and suicidal ideations to attack his enemies as quite a step up in sophistication yeah that a prayer or that a curse yeah that's it's an interesting question no matter how you slice it and which that yeah I mean let's never never mind you know Catholic ideas of mortal sins suicide being a unforgivable one and these these different notions but the reality is if it wasn't for folks like mr. McMurtry I I would have a dramatically different job you know I would have so much else to do because we wouldn't have to dedicate someone like me to spending a career ministering to and taking care of queer kids folks who have been hit with these messages because weather well I hate to even give credit I have to acknowledge that suicide rates are huge in the queer community I mean suicide rates among queer kids are three times that of the rest of the population and it's heartbreaking to think that somebody would encourage that that somebody would be in favor of that and when people ask like what you know why are we doing shows like this why are we combating these ideas I mean the general Society has started to to move on and and we're winning the battle anyway and you know why be so pedantic and chop up everything that he says and these little segments and just get we do it because these ideas are dangerous these ideas are hurtful there are so many people who come into my office completely unable to enjoy their own gender their own sexuality their own bodies their own identities because of this type of messaging and being disconnected from those aspects of themselves leads to things like anxiety leads to things like depression leads to suicidal thoughts and that very often leads to death yeah and you've touched on so like a broader point which I'd like to address I mean what this is a huge problem it remains a problem it's why things like the The Trevor Project mm-hmm still exist and as they should yeah I would like as we're diving into these uncomfortable topics to encourage people to look at resources like the trans lifeline like The Trevor Project these different hotlines have so much more to offer on their website so they you can talk to people over the phone and talk to people via text via chat room just knowing that as we're as we're talking about these really uncomfortable things they're likely are people in the audience who are feeling pretty pretty triggered by all of this language and I don't want anybody out there to feel like they're alone or that they need to give in to the thoughts are those feelings having worked with the National Suicide Prevention Line myself I can tell you even if you feel silly or like your problems aren't big enough or whatever else you really can save lives by accessing these types of resources so I'll let you continue but I did want to really encourage people to be aware of specifically the Trevor Project and the trans lifeline but there are a number of other really great resources particularly for queer kids that are are struggling with these experiences yeah and it we society is changing such that we can have those mmm openly as well and the the point that I was getting to was the way in which society is changing and why mm-hmm to hear people that are you know abstence ibly like allies are at least I think it's unactivated allies is the phrase that I've started using because yes they agree with the points but they don't necessarily agree with the any activism or they don't want to talk about it do anything about it they're the casual like yes I agree with you now let me get back to you know my dinner or whatever and when people say things along the lines of like oh why are you still doing this we're winning the fight at what etcetera it's like well okay the the fight as that phrase you know suggests that is being won but it's not being won by people that stay home and knit mm-hmm it's being won and society is shifting because things like this happen might don't tell me to stop helping because the help is working on a large scale mm-hmm which is what that sentence breaks down to I don't want to so I like this show and I am passionate about the things that I do to try and help I'm not trying to take credit for all of the the progress that's been made or you know to give this show all the credit for it sorry but the more things like this that are done well the more that that you know fight as it's sometimes called will be completed and the more progress will be reached and the less necessary things like this will be I'm literally working so that you know this job doesn't exist yeah I'd like to become a writer someday you know when I don't have to lose sleep over worrying about all of the folks that you know are really needing the type of help I'm able to offer yeah my wish is that this message will circumvent the fight and reach those people who are trapped in these religious institutions or in these environments and that we can get the message to them that it's going to be all right you can hold on a little bit longer you're not alone right just hold on a little bit longer one more day every day way at a time one more day it's gonna get better it's gonna be all right I thought there's somebody out there who understands that believes in you and knows that you're not a sick individual that regardless of what you believe or who you believe in you are not created wrong you are not a mistake you are not dirty there's somebody out there who is willing to offer it hand for you yeah you were not born broken you were born human and you're not alone and I think with the Oh let me circle back around to one quick point about sort of the unactive allies that exist that can sometimes really like why is the fight continuing et cetera and that's because they've been reached right like well the the specific portion but I'm talking about have been reached yes sure yeah you know there shouldn't be gay bashing or violence and yeah you know same-sex marriage why are you going on about it well it's not for you right you've been there's what you understand this that humans are humans cool good you know not everybody's gotten that message yeah you remember to vote not everyone's gotten that message yet and that's why we're still working on it and there are still people that feel deliberately as they are being deliberately oppressed and put down and made to feel less than by society and by institutions among them the new independent fundamentalist Baptist Church which is why that is what we're discussing now I think we've touched on everything from that clip know why don't we go ahead and roll the next one I want to talk about being born another way okay are you familiar with obsessive-compulsive disorder or OCD ADHD ad D Asperger's do you think people who have these clinical diagnoses are making a choice or do you think that's a honest medical issue that they have oh but you know and I'm not an expert on that subject but it's at the same time we clearly are coming up with a lot of new diseases and things because everybody's on meds you know you go if you have a typical healthy rambunctious hyperactive boy and you don't ever discipline him he's gonna get out of control now our society has decided it's better to drug them up than it is to spank them they think that's better well you start drugging kids up they're gonna come up with all kinds of weird problems you know so I'm not saying there's not such a thing as a DD you know has burgers all that kind of stuff but I do think a lot of that is drug-related and I think if parents would just you know discipline their kids biblically I think that's all the problem I think time you know my boys definitely had a needy but they were fine you know didn't hurt them I definitely never as parent of use them especially through drugs I never did it but sometimes sometimes people have problems that make normal life more challenging for them so do we throw the rules out the window for them do we you know if if somebody has an explosive temper do you turn them loose on society and let them beat people up or do we do we deal with it we force them to deal with that problem or they're going to be in trouble because we understand what they're doing is harmful to other people well it's the same thing too let's just say that somebody you know they have a attraction to kids you know what that needs to be stopped that needs to be dealt with that is a bad thing somebody is attracting the same sex that's a bad thing they they're responsible to control it so some dudes out there and love it theoretically he's attracted to other guys I don't think he needs to be put to death if he controls themselves and doesn't do anything pastor you know we do for example you know I'm a man and you know I'm attracted to women you know but at the same time does that give me the right to just go do what I want with any woman that I want I have no right to do that that that would be wicked for me to go and just sleep around with every woman that I think's attractive that's not what God intended and that's not something I should do and you know what you know as a young man I was attracted to females I wanted a wife you know I found one and I have kept myself only unto her as we said in the mouth I promise keep my cell phone into her as long as we both shall live if I see another woman and I think's attractive just what I am supposed to you know stay faithful to my wife and I'm not supposed to just give in to whatever I desire I might see an item that I want some people might be more inclined to steal than others we're not just gonna give him a pass because they're they've been diagnosed as a kleptomaniac and you know what if kids have whatever they still have to follow the rules of society it just might it may be a little more challenging for them so there's actually a lot of the underlying ideas there that I think I can agree with which is that but I'm the only one it said yeah yeah because it because if you uncut and you actually reevaluate the part with same-sex attraction and realize that it's not harmful you can get and you recognize that spanking is harmful you can get to pretty much the same conclusions that I have unless I forgot probably forgotten a part in here which is that yeah we don't throw out throw out throw the rules out the window a good thing is what he said because you know a pedophile is attracted to children we find a way of preventing the harm and then you know we also don't kill people by stoning in a public square and we find the way to do that right like we don't throw out the rules because a person has been diagnosed with a DD we try and treat them and oftentimes part of that treatment includes medication which I think you know you can speak more to than I can but we help people and we make a better society instead of telling people my way or the highway it's your responsibility to you know fix whatever might be ailing you we help people be part of society and we've made that society better and more accepting I just I mean like you there was an good things that we're into that I can agree with but it just it ended in such a weird little place like when I put my on when I was in college I put myself through college working at inpatient psychiatric wards particular particularly and predominantly adolescent pediatric mmm and I saw or at least I saw inappropriate use of medication with children sure with with dire results specifically using the Thorazine or overusing chemical restraints for these kids and I totally agree I think that that is not I think that it was probably and still is a problem I don't necessarily belong with spanking but again addressing these issues in a way that needs to be addressed how we jumped from that to attraction of a same-sex I don't get mm-hmm well it's because he sees that as I mean he wouldn't say as a similar disorder because he would say that there's a difference there but it's another thing that he thinks is wrong or normal and I do like to correct him that where he talked about if he coveted something else such as another woman that that's not that because he doesn't act on it is okay according to Jesus he still committed adultery in his heart mm-hmm yeah there's a lot there but one place I want to start is acknowledging that you're right I've also worked in inpatient psychiatric facilities even out in the community I fully recognize that there are plenty of folks who are being overmedicated over diagnosed these different concerns that are really worth addressing and you know really worthy of honestly their own their own show their own you know conversation but I have to express some concern over this idea that we're dismissing experts for you know what worked for me you know this notion of the the grand conspiracy and like these bigger issues as if psychiatrists don't know that sometimes things are over diagnosed or that they're over medicating I mean each individual psychiatrist is working within their own ethics and we can poke around the edges of that talk about flaws in the system but this notion that that he somehow knows better overall it kind of goes into everything that we've said today you can listen back to the entirety of the interview and if you recall that this is one particular person with one set of experiences who dismisses the larger scientific community who dismisses outside sources and information who happened to be born as somebody who is cisgendered as somebody who is straight as somebody who is May as somebody who is white you have somebody who's been given every advantage and opportunity by being born into a society that was pre molded and shaped to be very convenient and ready to go that's not to say that he hasn't suffered I don't know his life story I don't know I with the had his heart broken in high school I don't know if his mom got sick when he was in college I don't understand these parts of him and I don't mean to pretend to I don't mean to suggest that he hasn't had a hard life but he's had a lot of opportunities and a lot of things that haven't been hard that are for so many so many so many other people and so for him to come from his perspective as somebody who's able bodied who somebody who's not suffering from a serious mental illness and to say well yeah my kids ran around a lot and they were really loud so they must have had a DD but because we beat them properly it wasn't a problem you know maybe I really want to rape somebody I I don't mean to put words in his mouth but that's kind of what I'm hearing in that sentence but I don't do it so why should I he's really miss um generalizing his experience to that of everybody else's and he always seems to go through the extremes mmm what's always extreme it's that but that's half of everything he has and everything that has been deemed acceptable for him to use to understand the world it's what is in your heart and also what is in your heart should be Jesus as described in the King James Bible 1611 as we interpret it as we interpret it now and nothing else and so when there's something that's not in the King James Bible like you know better and you know increasing knowledge about mental health issues and treatment he has to then rely on what is in his heart metaphorically and I think there's a lot of empathy that I hear in his voice and I think that you know in his terms I don't agree with corporal punishment but in his rooms he's like yeah you know you're gonna mess up kids with drugs well you can mess up kids with corporal punishment and that's something that he actually in a previous clip is it colleges you know you're not beating a kid bloody or whatever who for the sake of be new or for the sake of beating them right and it's like well what you're not giving drugs to a child it endlessly right you're not laying out you know lines of cocaine or whatever for your three-year-old you're and you're not you we agree there's too much and give someone too many drugs but there are a lot of things that he said that I do agree with I do agree that people with certain disabilities or certain types of problems we just don't give him a free rein we learned how to help them cope sure we don't just take what we want whether it be physical or sexual object or sexual desires and but it's so there are things there's common ground here that we uh know and we agree with in it's common sense you know in a civilized society yeah he agrees with rehabilitation rather than just punishment right he's like oh you know he said we don't have to kill all the gay people well I mean I don't think he has said that he does it it's a slide when he compares one and then immediately pivots to another but you're right I don't mean to put words in his mouth he does he would just say that they're not given over to a reprobate probably if they control himself yeah cuz he could God cursed him with that retrograde mind well that you know I I don't know how he rationalizes those two statements but he said that you know oh my boys had a DD and you know it didn't hurt them much right so it's like oh there was this thing that you know in his words sometimes people have problems and that makes life more difficult he understands that there are things that are more difficult and that people need help to get there it's just that his model and the the world that he was raised in is all of that is from the King James Bible version six King James 1611 and our interpretation of it period and it's like well okay by observing the world we've learned other things we've learned how to make modifications and help treat people see I don't I don't quite hear that what I hear him talking about how we don't make exceptions for people based on their their needs or their experience you know III agree in the sense that yeah just because somebody has anger issues does not give them a license to kill you don't have that right and I fully recognize and appreciate that but there is a difference between equality and equity there is a responsibility in a just society to recognize that there are folks who struggle with something more than others and to make some level of accommodations for that and especially as somebody who's sitting at the top of the heap as I've described you know talking about his races gender and these different things there's so much dismissiveness to stand at the top of the pile and to say well I have the same opportunities that you had and look at me here you know why do you feel like you should get special treatment or special opportunities or special forgiveness and it it really breaks my heart and and frustrates me to see that argument accepted in a modern era when there is so much opportunity to see how other people live you know we have almost everybody regardless of your financial status or opportunities in modern-day America has access to seeing how other people live in a way that is completely unprecedented there's opportunity now for somebody in Southern California to understand the life of somebody in northern Maine that simply did not exist ten years ago let alone 200 let alone 2,000 and so to not have any empathy for other people's experiences when that information is right there and available to actively reject it and shun the outside world to insulate yourself in that way so as not to see or understand it is is callous in a way that I don't see the Jesus of the Bible speaking yeah I mean I I think that touches on pretty much everything I mean they you know he cited Romans earlier which you know is a letter from Paul rather than Jesus's words which is why they use the whole one Bible instead of just the words in red but I think this is the first time he's actually utilized some scripture formed a New Testament because yeah that's true the Old Testament yeah I think that's just based on the subject matter I'm sure there's a lot that they get from the the New Testament as well that relates to you know various other things like their soteriology is probably also just New Testament yeah what I find interesting is that doing research you can basically find multiple passages in the Bible that are contrary to his state and his position and maybe one or two that are supportive of Tommy's position so my question is how do we know what is right if we have a book a divine inspired book that has the blatant contradictions of once to have one position how do we know what is right how do we cry do we find truth I mean I if you're asking me I was really don't read at work okay yeah cuz I don't I don't start with the Bible yeah I frankly read better books but you know I I we don't but we're not dealing with that right now yeah leader of a pretty pretty horrible radical position that is using light is in this book and it's it's used in a way that that hurts people right I think that's one of the things I know that so it's it's that I've listened through all this and then I I think I've also probably immersed myself and more of the the preachings and teachings of the NIF be you have so tuned to me being able to contrast his words with theirs I think I hear more of the like no no look he has like a little bit of compassion and understanding for people that are outside the church or as other preachers don't but like you like you touched on he doesn't have the same perspective of other people's suffering mm-hmm because you know like it or not they're things that other people go through that in his words make life more difficult that he hasn't and it's unfortunate that the preachings and teachings that he was raised with or at least now holds prevent him from going yeah you know what I should be accepting of other people and try and find a way to help ya make people's life better that no one is beyond help that whether you believe someone as a reprobate or not doesn't mean they should be denied a sandwich if they're hungry yeah well he just talks about how everybody regardless of their their needs or their experiences their mental health whatever else their orientation is responsible to follow the the rules of society and he doesn't really define where those are coming from I mean ostensibly they're extrapolated from the Bible but is certainly there's much more to it than X the Bible doesn't have much to say about many many many things that are significant in our society but I mean it's very easy again for him to say that from his position you know I mean if there was a religion that the darker your hair is the more Noble and holy and just and righteous you are it'd be very convenient for me to look down on the two of you and and Derek and I more so on Jamie and you know anyway what we do but for the merits of his character not the color of his hair well okay all right there's a lot to be concerned with but I guess I just would like to stress more than anything that it's very convenient to stand on the moral high ground and talking about this is right and this is wrong for seemingly arbitrary reasons because there's really nothing outside of the Bible's existence of it if it wasn't for the Bible there would be no reason to draw these lines so it's very convenient for somebody to pick this particular book to adhere to these particular lines when they happen to be born on this side of the line and not on that side of the line and I think that touches on some of the things we said earlier which is like not everyone is born in a Christian country the opportunity to be saved and that is something that I think you know isn't considered enough as like well what does that say about the claims that this doctrine that I'm preaching make right like if you if there's a person that doesn't have the opportunities that you have to reach you know your position where you know for the for the sake of argument we're looking at this from his perspective then how can you blame them for that right obviously saying well oh I have the answers and everyone should because they're right here is easier as you've said to say when you're handed the answers mm-hmm even though I don't agree that you have the answers I don't know I cut you off I think before you were gonna say sometimes in closing you know once they love you yeah he's gonna say all right you can attack my character as much as you want but don't attack my hair all right there is nothing wrong with it you get a little bit split ends all right you know what we accept you we understand that you were born this way yeah okay all right well so we're gonna have to wrap this up pretty soon because I might have to go out and fight someone not actually I'll just we'll just engage in a series of hair flips to demonstrate the laughs yeah whether it's your a debater hair flips I bring it in bring it on yeah Jamie we fight like this okay well fair enough you thank you guys for having me on I guess in my closing I just think again want to remind folks about resources like the trans lifeline like The Trevor Project and things that you may feel like leaning on you know after an experience like this or you know depending on where you're coming from recovery from religion is another really excellent project that people might be feeling right now if you just want to google that phrase recovery from religion there are a phone hotline as well as chat rooms and different things for people who are kind of feeling uncomfortable or challenged by what is frankly some pretty heavy and uncomfortable subject matter and if you want to continue this conversation please join in and comment on our YouTube and like and subscribe and I'm very active on their press that like buttons I'm a normal degree okay now this is another show that's gonna get you to break your computer but um so in closing I'll say that's all the time we have but we're gonna continue breaking down the interview please join us next time where we'll have special guests are enrol here with us to break down the next part of it and go without God

Posted by Lewis Heart

This article has 6 comments

  1. They're possessed by demons. Oogabooga. If one can't even explain scientifically why someone is attracted to the opposite gender at the minimum, then you have no argument, and STFU. Unjustified beliefs are not rational beliefs. They are beliefs born of ignorance, and that's prejudice, not morality.

  2. How come the HGP and twin studies
    document one twin becoming straight, while the other becomes a sodomite/lesbian? That proves there's no gay gene or natural cause of same sex attraction and thus it's a choice. Which explains why many have become ex-gays and they now love and serve the Lord.
    The anus is part of the digestive system, not the reproductive system. Perversion of this fact has lead to many horrible conditions like prolapsed rectum, the spread of syphilis and 61% of new HIV infections which are due to sodomites.

    Not to mention depression and suicide attempts which are around 40% in the LGBT community because their conscience is convicting them of what is immoral and unnatural

  3. I tried to put together some helpful resources-

  4. Guys, you missed something pretty important on the topic of nonphysical disabilities.

    I totally agree that neurodivergent people shouldn't be given a special pass just because of our disabilities, but that's not the big issue. It's far more common for people to be far more strict in their application of the rules and far more liberal in their use of punishments with us in an attempt to discipline the disability out of us. It often carries into the territory of abuse. The prevalence of that does quite a bit more damage than the occasional people who just give their kids a pass.

    Also, thank you for drawing a distinction between giving neurodivergence a pass and providing accommodations. There are still a lot of people out there who don't understand the difference.


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