Atheist Experience 23.21 with Tracie Harris & Jen Peeples

Posted By on May 22, 2019



[Applause] hello welcome to the atheist experience today is Sunday May 19th 2019 I'm Tracy Harris and with me today is co-host Jenn people's hey how are you good are you alright the Atheist experience is a production of the Atheist community of Austin a Texas non-profit educational organization dedicated to the separation of religion and government and the promotion of positive atheist culture you can come down and join us tonight after the show at the freethought library on caning and we do take donations for the dinner but we also offer that free to the public so come on down there is absolutely no obligation join us for some food and some chat and some fun and yeah just to hang out a little bit and we don't know what we're having it and Sara I don't know what's for dinner but it's usually good but there'll be something yeah in worst case there's leftover doughnuts so we don't really have any special announcements today but you have a topic yeah I wanted to talk about some of these abortion restrictions that are passing fun times oh yeah yeah very fun times that you and I are not autonomous human beings apparently yeah no they're the three states I wanted to talk about briefly Georgia it's a fetal heartbeat law that just passed which basically means that abortions only legal up to about six weeks so about the time a woman finds out she's pregnant she can no longer have an abortion there are exceptions in the Georgia law for cases of rape or incest but only if the victim has filed an official police report which is problematic because a lot of rapes are never reported for lots of reasons in the Georgia law abortion is punishable by up to ten years in prison but it's unclear who'd be charged whether it be the woman the doctor or both so that's a pretty that's actually it's surreal it is that is some people have pointed out the punishment for having an abortion after being raped in these states is actually more than a rapist would get assuming you could get a conviction for it in Alabama the six week abortion ban kicks in so it's it's basically you can get an abortion up to six weeks or up until the point you find out you're pregnant so yes and that is literally what the guy said and it was a man saying this that a woman can of course have any procedure she wants up until she knows she's pregnant protip dude women don't go around having pre-emptive abortions you know there's no such thing there are no exceptions for rape or incest and in Alabama this is a Class A felony it's punishable by up to 99 years in prison for the doctor and I just want to say like I heard somebody I'm trying to say that it was being spun as oh he's talking about things like Plan B but I just want I mean go look at the clip yourself because it's it's my recollection it is exactly what you said that he's just like no no no none of these you know none of the abortion options are being withheld from women right up until the time they know they're pregnant mm-hmm and I'm just I mean it didn't sound to me like he was talking about a single option or you know what I mean right was like oh we're not we're not stopping women from doing anything on the abortion front up until they know they're pregnant it's like I don't even I don't know what that means yeah I mean I know what it means but it makes no sense so yeah it's really bizarre and like I said no exceptions for rape or incest so basically as soon as you know you're pregnant you can no longer have an abortion in Alabama and as many people have pointed out this up to 99 years in prison that's far more than a rapist would get for raping and impregnating the woman yeah so it's basically open season on women in Missouri just past an 8 week abortion ban which has provisions because it's going to get challenged and they've got a heartbeat rule in there so just for people that that are confused about this what's being called a heartbeat is actually electrical activity from a a primitive structure that will become a heart at some point it's not an actual beating heart okay it is detectable electrical activity but but you know people have this idea that it's this teeny tiny little baby in there you know with all its fingers and toes and stuff like that and that's what people are getting emotionally connected to that's not what a fetus looks like at six weeks it's yeah I mean it's just the other thing is I remember seeing one of the legislators thing like you know and this is this is how we gauge you know like protecting life and whatnot now it's like no it's not it's brain activity yeah and they don't they don't just check for a heartbeat I mean if you have like some kind of autonomic nervous system stuff going on but there's not brain activity and other parts of your brain where you're gonna come back and actually you know ever be aware right generally they're just like hey this person is gone yeah and and this whole fetal pain thing there's actually no evidence that a fetus feels pain until I think the earliest point at which those structures even exist that could transmit pain signals are like 28 weeks some people say 30 or even 32 weeks is the earliest so but I did I mean I saw somebody stand up on a town hall it was like a Pennsylvanian town hall and she was just like I want to you know deal with this with facts and she said you know the heartbeat is it's X weeks and the feels painted next weeks and and it's you know human and I just thought okay this you know this guy over here is a human being he's got a heartbeat he feels pain can you use your body without your consent right cool yeah I it's just weird it's like yeah they're facts but maybe you use relevant facts well and that that actually brings up something I wanted to talk about because there's actually relevant case law in this this is a case from 1978 it actually went to court okay so in this case a guy named Robert McFaul was 39 years old was diagnosed with a rare form of blood cancer called aplastic anemia and in order to survive he needed a bone marrow transplant and so he went to his siblings they tested all the siblings none of them were a match they finally tested a cousin a guy named David Shemp who was in fact a match is a very good match and anyway after going through the testing and determining that chimp was a match they said hey let's schedule this bone-marrow transplant because your cousin Robert McFaul is going to die if he doesn't get this with the transplant he would have a 50 to 60 percent chance of surviving okay Shemp said you know what I don't want to do it and the reason he said he didn't want to do it is because he had a dream in which he he dreamed that he wouldn't ever come out of the bone marrow donation procedure if he went through with it and he was married and had kids and he didn't want to die and so he refused well this caused like a major rift in the family and after failing to prevail on him to do the donation even after doctors explained that it's virtually painless for the donor you know he's under anesthesia and there's pain relief and everything in it and it it wouldn't hurt him he still refused so the family out of desperation took him to court and they sued him in a court and the judge came back and said you know I find his position morally indefensible but you can't compel the guy to donate you know part of his body to sustain another person's life even if they're going to die without it and so he ruled against McFaul and that ruling came down on I think like late July and McFaul died August 10th of that year so it was you know he does he definitely needed it but this illustrates how it's very well-established in law that you don't require someone to donate any part of their body to someone else even if that person will die without it and that's the situation we're in when it comes to an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy women are being required to allow another human to use their body in order to not die that's that to me is morally indefensible if I don't have the same bodily autonomy at least as a corpse that's pretty gross and that's the situation we're in yeah I remember talking about a procedure that I found it was really strange I think I heard about it on NPR and I looked into it and it was just sort of like this timeframe where they did this procedure which was hooking up a baby to the mother to act as a life-support system this is before they had like actual life support systems they could put you on while they did a surgery or whatever and she just acted like the heart pump to you know keep the baby alive and the women needed to consent to this it's like this is the mother this is the baby this is the baby's life and she needed to consent to be hooked out to the baby in order to supply it you know like blood tissue you know use of her organs in order to sustain it through the surgery and you just wonder it's like why did she need to sign a consent form right what's the purpose of the consent form and it's it's because you have to consent to this yes even if it's your own child yes and you know I think you've stated this very eloquently many times is that it's just a fact of biology that if a fetus is removed from its mother's body prior to a certain point in gestation it will die that's just biology and it's unfortunate for the fetus but yeah women didn't get to vote on that people with the uterus didn't get to vote on that right it's like that's how it works and in and for the people to say but surely you don't support abortion right up to the point of birth there is no such thing okay post viability it's called c-section or induction okay and the times when you get to make that choice or you know when you have to make that choice in late term it's not something that women are doing on a whim that oh god I just forgot to get that abortion let me go in and get this late term procedure that by the way involves delivering a stillborn child okay because that's how you get the baby out of your body at that point in gestation so I mean none of this stuff is it's something that women do on a whim are there some people that are irresponsible of course but restricting abortion access is not the way to make people more responsible and if somebody's that irresponsible do you actually want them to raise a child I mean come on it's an interesting you know one of the interesting subtext is if you're that by promoting that women can't make responsible decisions about their own bodies what you're actually promoting is that women in no way would be responsible to trust with seats of government Yeah right it's like this is a way to undermine women's competency like all the way around it's yeah goes beyond just reproductive choices if I can't if I can't even make health care decisions about myself I have to be told what to do with my body because I just you know I can't figure it out you know I thought I should have a medical procedure what does that say about how do as a society how does that undermine people's confidence in women and their their competency yeah well in another thing I would point out that it's a little bit more ominous but it's this if the state can tell you that you can't have an abortion that same state can tell you that you must have an abortion if they can control that aspect of your life then they have control over the whole thing it's so is weird how that works right so somebody was talking about they had somebody I guess that was on social media that was arguing about the whoever's the biological you know sperm donor for this you know new human being that they should have some say in whether or not like the pregnancy goes forward or not right and I was just like how does that even work right because these things only work in their heads one way right right basically they would say oh I want the guy to be able to step in and stop her from having an abortion think it's right her to have the baby and it's like so but what if he steps in and says I don't want a kid so she has to abort yeah I mean you you're not really you can't give somebody that's not giving somebody a say in it that's giving them control of it right exactly you can't well and and there was one guy and I can't remember which state he's from but he he basically said that quiet part out loud where he he basically said yeah the woman's just the host she actually needs the man's permission to do whatever she wants to do I'm sure I saw pro-lifer on one of the network's and they were I guess it was a cable channel doing I guess it's no network I don't know maybe they are networks but they were talking about the one young woman the 12 year old that has gotten pregnant via repeated rape and one of the things that the pro-lifers said was because the the person that was the host described that situation and she's like well you know this bill has no exception for rape like surely you don't condone you know forcing somebody do you support that part of the bill that you know would would require this this person this twelve-year-old yeah carry to term and the guy said well you're talking about innocent child there in the womb yeah and I've just kind mean it floored me yeah because I thought he's talking about this child and of course there should be you know eat but no yeah she's so that you know the the person doing the interview did call that out and say you know the twelve-year-old is an innocent child to you yeah yeah yeah you know let's let's hand wave that but yeah yeah it was it's just something else I don't know well and I guess I'd like to at least he's consistent right yeah but I'd like to wrap this segment up by pointing out that some of the people that voted against the Alabama bill introduced legislation that would require the state to pay for the medical expenses of any child that the state forced a woman to have under this law pay for all of the health care and medical expenses of any child born under this law yeah until the child was at least three years old and that was voted down like 23 to hear something like that yeah it's not about it's not about concern for yeah the life of a child yeah so they absolutely do not care about punishment man yeah and that's what it is all of it is geared toward making sure that you do have accidents in that you are supremely punished for them well yeah because if you wanted to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and therefore reduce the need for abortion you would do at Colorado did which is make long-term birth control free and easily accessible to especially to teenage women but to really to any woman who needed it it's just a don't have sex and if you do have sex you need to pay for it yeah and of course now they're making a child into a punishment that a woman has imposed on her it's a little we're having sex yes it's a blessing but it's a perm yeah and with that we actually have a call it segues into this and finally I go ahead and start and go through the theist callers but we actually have an atheist on the line who wants to talk about abortion right strategies on keeping abortion legal hi Nicholas you're on with Jenna and Tracy I very nice to talk to you it's a cute honor because baby I've been following the show for many years so thanks a lot first so of course probably for the same reasons you started the show by addressing this topic being significantly triggered by the recent advance deals that have been passed you have to give a little background of where I'm coming from I'm a physician from Argentina I'm currently doing my psychiatry residency in Miami so basically I could not add any other argument than the ones you already expressed I watched many of your old arguments at other times about this topic I honestly fully agree with all of them so just at this time I think it's very significant for not just the topic of opponents right but also about the atheist perspective on religion or how religion influences policy I think it's very connected certain religious or doctrines influenced this kind of political movements and after so many years I think about 40 of full access to abortion rights in the u.s. I am very surprised and shocked by what's been going on recently just ADL my wife potentially being raped and then raped a second time by a government forcing her to continue that pregnancy terrifies me imagining that from a woman's perspective I can only think it would be the worse so far what I've been trying to do I recently started a few online projects one in Spanish for Argentina one in English with a co-president that is called the skeptic side in which the first episode we are discussing desert same issue and sort of argument in my co-resident it's very good at finding holes argument so I would go ahead with all the line of argumentation you've been referring to before and he would try to find any sort of holes in their argument she could not do that I'm trying also to speak so as a man I like to think myself at least as an ally of feminism and I try more recently to speak more with men than with women about feminism I think it could be a more effective way to help with a call well thank you yes yeah I think that's the best thing I could do I'll finish right away but basically and also thanks to your show I recently uh volunteered to recover him from religion oh great I'm very good when I when I finished residency and I'm a licensed therapist I'll probably join the secular therapy group I think that these are very connected fight the fight against religious doctrines on the side for winners right so my question is that those are the things I've been doing so far trying to speak with other man and try to have good arguments about these issues what else do you think would be helpful to sort of like for instance at this time in the UN sort of regain those conquered lights that are now at risk in the country well I mean that's a good question and I think there are so many things I understand you're not a US citizen is that correct I'm done what part I understand you're not a US citizen is that correct no I am NOT I'm from Argentina I'll probably stay after residency but okay no I'm not yeah so like a no vote yeah so voting voting is huge but I mean if you can't vote yourself you can still support you know candidates or pro-choice in other ways so I would recommend you know reaching out to candidates finding out what their positions are and supporting them in other ways certainly your ability to provide compassionate care to your patients and you're likely to see a lot of women who are traumatized by some of these laws I think that'll go a long way toward helping mitigate some of the damage and as far as reversing it really all of these laws that have been voted on by these legislators they're all going to be enjoined the goal here is not necessarily to win on this round they're trying to get these to the Supreme Court right yeah I want to overturn Roe yeah I mean anything that even gets shot down it comes with an opinion right so it's almost like when you if you're writing a book and you're sending it to publishers and they write back to you and they give you feedback on it and it helps you maybe read you know repoing your book and make it better and that's what these laws are about you send it to a Supreme Court and yeah the law gets shot down and hurray the law got shot down but then they get information from these justices that basically helps them craft legislation that gets better and then they can pass that next time they look at where the judge is criticized it and we can man tweak that part of it and we can and so what they're trying to do is find out how much restriction can we get away with yeah and they've been chipping away at this for a long time they found a really great tactic with the trap laws oh yeah the targeted targeted regulation of abortion providers I mean abortion is an incredibly safe outpatient procedure and they made it sound like it's you know oh my god you're risking your life just yeah and it's a really simple procedure as opposed to a nine-month gestation and a childbirth in 17 hours of labor which is just a cakewalk yeah never hurt anybody that confusion very frequently with late term abortion which is not really a divorce about either of induced labor or c-section yes yeah that's huge in Kitty's perception of how medicine works today get information is a good thing right so I think most most folks aren't supportive of these laws and I think the good news is that when people see the laws that are this yeah I'm using the word comical not because I think it's funny but it's just such an absurd degree there's such such absurd legislation I do think that like even when the Alabama law came out right there were a lot of people that would love to see a total ban on abortion who said oh this is going too far yeah and some folks posted that and said look you know even Pat Robertson says this is too restrictive and it's like no Pat Robertson is saying this is too restrictive to pass right he's not saying it's too restrictive for his goals right so his he understands the optics of this and that when you push something like that it gets a lot of negative publicity so people look at it and they say whoa wait no in incest and rape like children well yeah well it's and you know and so this this makes people recoil and this actually can have like a negative backlash for their effort because it makes public sentiment kind of say wow this is really messed up right because it is messed up yeah and I think that when you're out there you know when you talk to people and and that's the thing it's oh we saw in Alabama like it was a woman governor that signed it into law after like you know yeah so you you know you've got all sorts here there's definitely conservative women and I but I do think that a lot of this you know and and we have to have effect all those minds but I do think it's not an issue maybe that a lot of men consider too deeply because you know and to be fair is it's because they don't have to consider it as deeply right I mean we all of us are more invested and more thoughtful and spend more time dealing with stuff that actually impacts us in our lives and that's not there's nothing wrong with it right that's just how many people are the things that impact you more directly are the things you put more interest in time into because you have to write you've got to deal with the things that have entered your life first so I get this and so when you're talking to other men I think that's a good thing because this might be an issue where they understandably aren't putting as much no thought or attention and so when somebody just has like a single conversation that might make them understand one or two points a little with a little more clarity I think that does a lot because then it's just like you know what I talked to somebody about this and they talk to they when I saw that you know this sound good until they explained this or that to me and suddenly I'm not as into that anymore I don't think that's right based on yeah conversations that we had and so I do think that those conversations especially with other men are a good thing because it raises the issue with people that don't normally have to confront it head-on and so I think that's probably a real positive thing because public sentiment is gonna play a big role in this but you know it's like the ultimately the justices are going to make these decisions but it's the legislators that write the laws that we put into office that are driving the laws that go to SCOTUS yeah correct by the end of the day both society and the political world are made out of individual little idea right yeah yes that makes a lot of sense so I do feel I'm on the right track right I appreciate I take a lot of things you mentioned but it hadn't thought about regarding how to have that better impact in the public opinion and certain issues I do appreciate that I don't know if needs to ask for too much if not it's strictly related to a book on life but it has to do with some struggle I have with some patients of mine that are believers and I do get to a point so I do both psychiatric medication management and therapy with several occasions sometimes I do find certain patients that did for instance have such a strong religious beliefs that I can clearly see how much they are interfering with their well-being for instance I could have without giving any specific information I have a mom whose daughter is homosexual and she from the Catholic perspective sees that as unnatural and morally unacceptable Andy's daughter got married with another woman and she is going through so much struggle and from the medical profession we have so a bit like there's so much reserve ation regarding how much to confront any sort of beliefs actually having a religious belief in most psychiatry taxol please consider a protective factor for suicide so anytime I would want to suggest the possibility of maybe challenging of course compassionately and emphatically don't believe I do have some colleagues who would say wait hold on you don't want to mess up with this protective factor and I do experience that sort of conflicting situation which I have trouble drawing the line from up to what point in that patient-physician relationship I am warranted to get into sort of doing something like what do you guys do in the show yeah just doing you know yeah please so one of the things I mean so I'm gonna do something that I may get hate mail for this but I'm gonna actually recommend that you talked to an Episcopal priest mm-hmm the Episcopal Church I subscribe yeah the Episcopal Church has actually been very open to LGBTQ people for a long time now and if you talk to an Episcopal priest that individual he or she may be able to give you some ideas about how to challenge this patients harmful views of homosexuality from a religious perspective versus openly challenging the actual religious beliefs and I don't know if that would I don't know if that would be you know effective or or what but it might it might break them away from the more harmful aspects of the religious beliefs if they had another I guess another way of thinking about those religious doctrines that makes a lot of sense because that would also be a way to sort of protect myself from sort of being I don't know how to call it sanitizing over sort of like take people being able to say I'm removing helpful beliefs from people even though I have so many objections to whether or not they truly are helpful but there's this sort of consensus in the mental health professional community that religious beliefs are something more positive than negative and I do not sure that yeah I haven't found that to be try to feel I agree with you at the same time I am sort of regulated by that community right that's when the conflict doesn't have yeah and that's this one I think you know if you get a another perspective from you know a faith community that doesn't share this absolute condemnation of homosexuality and you know Episcopalians there's also the Lutheran's the Evangelical Lutheran on council of America if you find you know a Lutheran priest you talk to them about that and maybe you go to multiple religious communities like that and get their perspective of this perfect perfect I really appreciated that I haven't thought of it so alright thanks a lot sure thank you thank your call okay thank you it's being a pleasure an honor so keep up the good work thanks – great thanks whew before we go on I did want to talk about a call that happened last week and just kind of put some clarity around it because okay great illustration of something right so during a call that was earlier in the show we talked a little bit about Gnostic atheism or nasty theism you know Gnosticism versus agnosticism and one of the things I said was that you know we understand knowledge as a subset of belief and to me it's sort of it's not it's like a fuzzy line when do you think you know something when you think you believe something and believing it to me is that you accept it it's true so is that you know how oh how efficient is that line and where do you cross it and it's just you know it's not a when person feels comfortable saying they know something it depends on a context sometimes right so one of the things that happened is after I had talked to somebody about you know having these honest calls and how you know I really appreciate like a conversation more than somebody who calls in with this script and I'm supposed to say something and then you know right and then I got a script call mm-hm and it was so interesting because they just went back and forth back and forth back and forth and I just finally hung up it's just like many times we can have the same exchange and what the person was asking me was do you like I do I believe that fairies exist or do I believe there's no such thing as fairies right and they were equated that to what about your view on God yeah and I actually have used those things in conjunction trying to explain my atheism so when people say to me are you Gnostic or agnostic because that knowledge line is so subjective to people some people have different opinions and what that means and if I say yeah I think I know it then we'll start talking and then I'll say something about it and they'll say well I don't think that's I don't think that's claiming to know and it's like okay well so what I try to do is just give people an understanding of where I stand on it and then I let them tell me like yeah you tell me if I'm a Gnostic atheist or an agnostic atheist based on how you think of knowledge right because right I'm just gonna tell you how I view it you can label how you want and so what I said was I do accept that there's no such thing as gods just like there's no such thing as fairies and I accept those things for the same reasons right and to the same degree and the reason I put it that way is because sometimes when I start to have a discussion and somebody wants to get into you know logically you cannot prove that there is no God logically I cannot prove there are no fairies I get that right yeah yeah if I was confronted with a fairy or a god I would totally be like oh hey I was wrong and to some people that understanding about something where you're willing to say I'm I accept that from that logical framework I could be wrong they'll say that's not knowledge mm-hmm and that's fine okay then to you I'm an agnostic atheist right but to somebody else who says no you're claiming that you know because you know that's what that means and yeah okay that I'm claiming that I know and if you don't accept fairies as real then you understand all the same reasons and the degree to which I feel that way about your God right and we can either talk about that or we don't have to talk about that but if you understand your position on fairies and you're saying that's knowledge you can't demonstrate it to me either but you're accepting it you know and so yeah my point partly to him at one point was to try to explain that my position on this is consistent right I'm saying that I do draw that parallel I don't write and I to him that I think one I'm not saying I think one way about one thing and the other way about another thing I'm just simply saying whether or not it's knowledge depends on the who the person I'm talking to you thinks of knowledge right versus belief and if they draw a line or don't draw a line or where they draw a line and so I'm happy to you know say yeah that's to me that's parallel and if that's what you want me to say I'll say it it's parallel for me in my head the question to me then is you know as a Christian how are these things not parallel to you right like why do you see one as different well you know and and so we never really got that far because I just kept getting re asked RIA but do you know do you know and I was like I'm telling you my perspective on it and yeah you and I'm not and I'm not denying whatever does you want to label it I'm just saying this is how I'm viewing it I'm being as honest as I can be and but the thing is they just kept asking and asking the reason a person keeps asking something is because they're not getting a satisfying answer right but it's the it's the only honest answer I can give right and so I can't help a person who wants a different answer if the answer I'm giving is honest and it's not the answer they want and so just kind of an FYI that's what a call a scripted when someone calls with a script in their head that's what it looks like yeah right it's just they they're getting really you know if you if I answered it incorrectly or in a way that made him think I didn't understand the question he would have reframed the question right you then you would say oh no no wait I I mean you misunderstood me and here's what here's what I was trying to say and I think you didn't understand and that's a whole other issue and that does happen in an honest conversation where somebody might reframe and re ask something but this is not that this is just asking again it in because you're just trying to make me say a thing it's it's the Ray Comfort have you ever told a lie you know it and when you say oh yes of course doesn't that make you a liar yep yeah so so yeah you didn't follow the script and so yeah he got frustrated and that's what that's what a dishonest call looks yeah so just FYI and with that let's go ahead and take sad who we've talked to before you're in Pakistan and you want to talk about the origin of the universe through logic and why you have a theory that works better than another theory I guess and you're on with Tracy and Jen I said hello I hear something I don't hear a person though yeah sad are you on the call can you hear us and I going once going twice alright well we gave it a shot sorry that there was a problem with the connection better luck next time so we're gonna move on to rob in New York in Long Island and you have evidence about the Bible and you're on with Tracy and Jen how you doing them miss Peebles how you doing John I'm just trying good you know being the second call is hard you touch the bar on a couple of tough subject you know things that I don't talk about and you know I'm aware of garlic almost I'm a FEMINIST I am okay pretty much counter to the psychiatrist who said he's a feminist and the only way I can relate to put a spin on what the topic was is the only way you can really discuss that subject of motherhood is through personal stories to use the medical procedure is a poor example of what we're talking about I think and that's the difference of why people defend or want the Lord to be changed and don't want the law to be changed oh well we want the law to be changed well yes I understand you do but the majority of people in this country don't want abortion laws to be changed I don't I'm not aware that to testify well that was old then you need to pay more attention because polls are very consistent there's overwhelming support for continuing to make abortion legal I've never seen you know I glanced through the papers I haven't seen a poll on abortion in years in a long time yeah they do them repeated opioids a hot topic shins yeah yeah I know it's a hot topic special yeah they do a lot of public three Awards yeah the three state board in but once again it's a personal if you want to I mean I'm sure they have personal stories in Canada yeah they don't have laws governing abortion there if we're not talking about was we're talking about the women who have had them women have had them in Canada I'm sure yeah I'm tired of everybody no and they don't you lost there they don't have laws that is I can only relate to the personal stories of the women I know now if you want so why would I say well there's statistics counters to the personal stories that I know why would I say it because they don't agree you don't know what you mean about like yeah I would agree and I don't even know like so a person has a personal story what why is there are a lots of personal stories I'm sure but that's what I'm saying you to talk about the issue of motherhood compared to abortion no we're not talking about motherhood compared to abortion we're talking about the right to bodily autonomy right all right if you want to call it bodily autonomy it's called bodily autonomy yeah if you want to talk about it in this in the sense of medicine or the removal of the fetus it's totally out of character of what the nature of the procedure is you know it isn't women yes it's it unfamiliar it's it if you talk to women that have had them or you've known what their condition we've never I have friends who have had abortions and friends who have had children what makes you think I don't have friends who had them yeah i-i've actually regarde worked as an escort and an abortion clinic I know friends who have had abortions who feel like that was the best decision they ever made and I have friends who feel bad about it it just depends on the person that's what we're talking about no it's not what we're talking about it's their choice it was their choice and it should remain their choice they should choose to have the child or to not have the child all right we can leave it it's a personal story but if you want to go statistically since we've allowed on that procedure into this into the system but they the incidence of childhood violence has risen a lot of no it hasn't no it absolutely has not and in fact there's some statistics out there that show that about 17 years after roe v wade became the law of the land teenage violence dropped precipitously and part of the reason part of the reason for that was that a bunch of unwanted kids were not born teenage violence is still there and I'm talking about it's very low now compared to what it was in the early 90s take care of children do you talk to police officers at all yes I think the thing that's weird to me is that it seems like what I mean these children that are being treated violently couldn't be treated violently unless somebody chose to have a child you know you're basically making an argument that people who decided to have a kid or over you're saying that people who chose to have children have somehow elevated child violence which means that you know maybe more people should be having abortions yeah maybe I mean the back of the if you if you put into the context of thought well gee I could have had an abortion instead of there's a lot of you know what people think in their minds and nobody can have an abortion whether it's legal or not it doesn't have to be legal frightened to think I could have had an abortion making it illegal doesn't make it inaccessible I get a like this I can only go by the statistics statistics it's like saying drugs are illegal so there are no drugs in the US right because it's illegal so there are none no one's actually drug use and opiate that's gone up so well what I'm saying though is your argument that if you know what that if it's legal people think I could have had an abortion and I'm saying whether it's legal or not people could have had an abortion I mean if you diminish motherhood because that's what what you're talking about does the clinic do the removal of a fetus from them no it doesn't it absolutely does not that's motherhood forcing people to have babies diminishes motherhood yeah teenage pregnancies gone up abortions have gone up yeah teenage pregnancies have gone up because access to birth control has been limb by people who want to punish people for having sex how does this prove the Bible yeah it's it's not as accessible as it should be and you know what happens when it is accessible go take a look at what happened in Colorado when they made birth control universally available to teenage girls guess what happened to the unplanned pregnancy rate and the abortion rate in Colorado went down yes it did do you think they stopped having sex on the pill how many years can a woman stay on the pill as long as she wants that's not what I've actually made a few don't know may actually talk about my age but I'm gonna say I'm into my 50s and I'm on hormonal birth control so yeah I take that to the bed I've also met women that that have had problems from it – yeah and there are people who have problems from lipitor but they still give it to people yeah well there's a big difference between lipitor and birth control is safer than lipitor all right fine that's fine that's fine birth control pills are safer than Tylenol oh and this is why Nikolas is doing such a good thing talking to men yeah just saying Thank You Nicholas I think he's I don't think he really understands that much cuz I think you should spend an hour with him yeah what the Ponyo psychiatrist dude they're one doing I thought you said yeah but there are doctors psychologists that pray before you go into their counseling I prefer psychologists who are through their skills both Justice guild who did there are psychologists in this country that travel the world helping trauma victims yeah raped who've been murdered yep and they and their Catholics okay yeah so decision so you know nickel and dime the one who will a woman who has a religious or any person has a register and end up in a world with secularity is really up there on list of popularity right now and is having problems grappling with society yeah you're gonna have a problem there you know it marriage is necessary anymore you know because and the word religion I'm sorry that your childhood comfort things are going away yeah why you'd say these are my childhood comfort things didn't you just say something about like you know do you know have to get married anymore and it's like yeah these are these are things that are becoming antiquated yes they're not antiquated it's it's a it's like it you just said it was you just finished saying it's going away what do you think antiquated means it could be a phase you ever heard of a phase I don't see this coming back yeah you don't see marriage coming back not in the way you're thinking I think the types of marriages that are coming are not what you're envisioning but I think with the ones that you're a vision and they're gonna fail it's not it's the ones that you envision fail 50 years ago it's not a long time there's something that's been around for thousands of years yeah people are now allowed to actually get out of unhappy relationships and so they do yeah what causes you unhappy relationship that's is probably husband's like you yeah yeah because I wouldn't last five minutes I come home do you think I come home and pour pop on the TV set do I walk around like no I think you walk around saying that a woman isn't even a human being because you've heard stories I don't know what you talk about those are women that tell these stories my wife has always been in opinion in my life to say that behind every good man isn't a good woman or behind every good woman isn't a good man it's kind of a little all right this is going south fast I know it's just when you come in after a caller it's a little bit different yeah well we've got other colors so let's hit your topic all right I think I was my train apart I think we should call we should say as far as the Garden of Eden goes that the apt the forbidden fruit that was eaten and this is what I was given in the beginning God didn't even tell anybody about the forbidden food it was found by accident who told you that god I thought he told them that he could they could eat of any tree except for that one yeah that was just a small part of the story right but it's part of the story right I mean you you're basically saying that God didn't tell him about the tree I think he told them it was forbidden through all the people in the garden weren't there not that it's not in the story it depends who you listen to well I'm just like in it this is about the Bible being true right wasn't it yeah like I'm looking at like the Bible story there's there was no children until after they left the garden yeah or did you hear a different story maybe from one of those women you talked to you Yeah right like evils I'm crazy wrong there are christian theologist that believed there was so if you like that there was a civilization so was this evidence about the Bible or is this evidence about a theological story that you heard somebody else tell the same thing this is what was taught to me by my Julie the first the first buying of the Apple nobody even knew what the what the forbidden fruit was it was discovered by accident yeah baby doesn't even say it's an apple it just said it was a fruit yeah yeah I know it's a that is it that would if you wanted that is a symbolism correct if you want to say did Jesus heal a blind man or walk on water that is not symbolism that is the true power of God I can just know the fruit is a symbol but but walking on water that's totally fact that he did and how do we know yep parted the Red Sea and we know this part of the read wait that story of the exodus yeah right correct right that's that's not historic fact yeah I know you that you don't like to hear but know that no yeah there's no there's no history around this yeah you know when we're talking we can go back to Jesus you talk about we yeah we go back to Jesus cuz yeah yeah we have to what listen if it's a long history 6,000 years you don't have that kind of time I'll s last topic all right all the whip the witnesses that saw Jesus and that includes the Possible's you know a lot of them were crucified and to compare they said come Erik compare Harry Potter ISM that in thousands of years people gonna look back it's kind of like an irresponsible take on history people died because of that religion yeah people died because of all kinds of religions yeah persecution big difference that killed because of that religion that's correct but they knew he knew he was gonna die anyway he did that's the way it was written this is a story yeah but yeah okay are we just gonna go through what the Bible claims or is there anything that we're gonna hit that's actually evidence for the Bible being correct in you the way I see the picture of your groups is you want to be X children of God that's put it differently used to call it atheism you know people what they think about you know like whatever I India it when all said and done I will give I will have a way to prove to you that you are related to God and it'll be a simple test can i stir it through 23andme wow no no I never watch that okay you know this is a troll call it's actually pretty funny yeah all children of God okay so that you could talk I don't know how many years you've been on the air but all the commas feels like forever yeah all the conversations you have I could prove that you're wrong okay let's just try one yeah just yeah your best one that's what really ever seen that there's a machine that will test you to see if God is if there's garden you really where do I find this machine is this another woman's story no it's not okay where's nothing I can't tell you how the test is gonna because pretty much have to talk to sexual sex I'm starting to think that I'm being i think i'm being trolled yeah it does feel like a job you're not if you don't think I'm serious I'm gonna have to say no so we're moving on to sad has called back sad let's see if we've got you on the universe hey you're on McKenna Tracy hey thank you I'm so sorry I don't know what happened last time that's okay that's alright in the morning dude so what's going on so yeah well I just wanted to kind of talk to you about you so I know you talked about so many things we talked about the origin of the universe the last time around and we kind of came to the point where we said we as we said okay this is the too much this is something that may not be answered those requires a more of an expert opinion but then I thought why not talk well why not tackles are certain things based because you know I've always felt like with my fate I always believe everything is true because of logic and I've always tried to understand my face was I think it's the only one thing that that you know that I can't really give you and a real answer was is is the existence of God it Cooley this requires blind faith from what I've been told but other than that everything we're evolving everything in the food I've always been able to get it understanding through logic like why be fast because this is the month of fasting year it isn't over ground which is when I'm up right now I actually have to prepare very fast right after this call but so you know why why we have to pray five times a day and all sort of things I know I've discussed some things with Matt as well but I thought I'd run it by you okay so so basically I mean the idea of fasting for example because it's relevant to other people water Muslims this one you know it's basically self-restraint the self-discipline basically you avoid eating and drinking and everything else that would be considered sinful your mileage may vary but you know and so in order to kind of you know and for the most part to humble yourself to talk to those people who can't really afford it in the day because there are people especially in my part of the world who really can't afford and and you know in my city Karachi it's so hot weather you I mean it is extremely difficult to you know for a lot of people for both the population to survive in this heat but but basically the whole point is that you know you know beers I am a part of educated class home I'm so used to in a privileged upbringing so for us it really it really makes us feel like you know we can't even stand a minute without the a/c on in a car or in our offices and once they're out we're so exhausted so it's basically example of how one should discipline themselves if this is real logic behind doing it for 30 days I don't know why 30 days has been chosen there's probably a historical reason for that but the actual reason behind the past this is basically an example that I thought it explained to you okay and is that tied to the universe theory well in the sense that it comes from God it's usually obviously the whole point of the battery is that that we have to believe in God ie that there is no god but God only then that the foundation of Islam before Islam was built on and yet there's the other half of the Creed which says that mom was the messenger so and see if she went when I when I was doing a cross comparative studies of different faiths we pay all retracted by different religions especially Buddhism is something that I still am very fascinated by today so you know I've always looked at all the the judeo-christian faith Baberaham expenses they called I worked to Judaism I've refurbish an di in fact in order in order to understand what these plates are I actually went to a church I've been to synagogue I've had the Shabbat dinners I've lived in the state I've studied there I've spoken to people of different faith in finite spoken atheist too and I think I remember listening to mad one for one year I even lived with an atheist from Nepal well I mean I think that's very open-minded and I think that's good that you're willing to meet people and talk to people and consider different views so what is this thing about the universe well I feel like you know I feel like I always felt like this so much and real dog mysteries I mean I know I know we can say that those things good there's no answer for what cause everything is we should have to go but the size of matter is who else like I asked to let them and there's really no I really don't have a better answer for this like okay the Big Bang Theory is is the explanation by there it exists today and why we are you know what what really caused it what was behind it is it okay is it okay to if you don't have the information to actually indicate an accurate answer is it okay to say that you don't know yes I don't know but in my faith but I but if I just base it on say that I have to say it's a good car but you don't have to bet you don't have to base it on faith though that's the beauty part that's the thing is like you know I I believe that God created the universe I mean we understand that but the question I guess we're more interested in is why you believe that I well you see easy little then you have when I am part of a plate I know people like to criticize them a lot and there's so many things that people would say is wrong and I'm not going to debate I'm not going into that debate right now you know but according to my own experiences you know I have to add it with all this to a creator because you know not just retail because everything else makes sense like all of these have to come from the Creator because you are they will go to the Prophet so here's here's the problem that we're gonna have those here's here's what the problem is so we've got this void where there's no information and where I'm saying I don't know what this is and really we don't know what it is and you're saying I believe that it's this creator but I acknowledge that there's really a void of information here upon which to base the decision I just I find that answer satisfying right it's like emotionally satisfying to me to think that a creator is responsible for that gap in our knowledge and you can do that but really I don't know what there is to talk about right like that's kind of the end of the conversation at that point I mean I mean I want to pick your brain it's like if there is no leader and behind the universe then we do could we just could we just believe that it just came out of nowhere you don't have to believe anything you can say I don't know what happened and until we get information about what happened I don't know so it's almost like if you had a if you had a brother for example that disappeared one day like it just disappeared nobody knew what happened he went out one night he never came home the next day and they never found him and you could sit all day long and worry about what could have happened right and you can think to yourself well there's a picture of him getting dropped off at the nightclub and then he never we never would have any video footage of him leaving and so we don't know what happened you could come up with all kinds of ideas and you could have all kinds of feelings and you could think that it's emotionally satisfying to hope that he's still alive somewhere and he's going to come back at some point you can have all kinds of reactions to it but the point is if we're gonna talk about what actually is true about what happened to your brother if we don't have information I – I can say about it like you could talk about what you believe but I can't I have no response because I've got no information exactly yeah that's a good point but okay okay years your here's what I would say that you know was this the crime the book was revealed to the Prophet 700 something on that time ad so all so you know and and we'll it compares largest compared religious scholars high school Duarte said I've heard unbiased scholars you know they've all the information that I've gotten from even the wheel of them personally is that the front is the way it was recorded and the way it existed it was the same as it was yes yes that is that is not information from unbiased scholars that is part of your mythology it's part of the the tradition it's the same tradition that you know people say oh well the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and and so what it's a claim from a religious tradition it is and I could I could point out tons of logical policies and in the New Testament easily really appreciative a penpal so what doesn't make sense to me even you know even if I try to believe it and so what so in my opinion if if there is this book which has so which I still have so much fruit in it and comes from a God could could we not say that this is the being there could be reviewers I'm sorry what was it if I think there's so much truth in what I believe in and there's and and if we can prove that yes the book that was revealed so many years ago so many centuries ago it's still the same as it was if if you could come up if I could show you cool or if you can come across be it could you could we not say that this is from created no just maybe even if it hadn't changed in 700 years even if we found a manuscript of it from 700 years ago that identical all we would be looking at is a book that hasn't changed in 700 years yeah but if I could I understand it's very hard to add it with these things to create especially when you know it when when everything that you know just from my condition is used it boils down to evidence and you know science like it has to be proven by science somehow or the other the funny thing is science is to them and complete the similar thing that science is science do you even understand what we're talking about when we say science it's not like a book that one day is gonna be finished right but I mean as far as what he's describing yes there are things we don't know and yeah we started with that part of the conversation so again if we're gonna circle back and if the point is gonna be I don't know what happened before Big Bang or that there's not like a really solid theory on it that's fine I'll acknowledge that but then I'm saying at that point we just say we don't know talking about what could you like it so so so so my way I could say this would be when I asked question so you would I mean if I could tell you all the beliefs the entire belief system in their own and a structure of my faith and if all of those things make logical sense do you think if it makes logical sense and Islam says that is from God would you still give this power the benefit of the doubt when I still give what Islam the benefit of the doubt well I don't give anybody the benefit of the doubt what you're basically saying is what if something made sense and I'll just say you know off the bat that I've I read like a Taoist book and the thing to me was brilliant right like it made perfect sense it didn't make any supernatural claims it did it just basically talked about perspective and at the end of it I was just like wow I feel like that was like an incredibly relevant book for me even though it was written you know many many years ago and some Buddhist texts are like that for me like I'll read them and be like you know that's super relevant even today like I really you know and Aesop's fables right like I'll yeah those and be like I totally relate to that still I don't think that it takes a god to say things that make sense even thousands of years ago people I'm sure we're able to make sense sometimes right oh yeah there were a lot of smart people there's four people and four in every centuries and I mean if there's people like Aristotle and spoke with you so many years so many so many centuries ago then I'm sure the existed even then yeah so I mean yeah if I read it all and I thought wow this book makes sense I've read old you know really old books that I think makes sense and so for example there's like some Hindu books that are like stories and those don't not make sense really they make sense to me because they're their stories so you know it's it's kind of a weird thing I I don't know that that that is a demonstrated Eman stration of a god it might be an interesting book it might be a relevant book it might resonate today you know which would be really great that somebody penned something down that resonated you know even today there are some folks that do that but I don't know that it's evidence of a god yeah yeah it's the same thing like when I talk to different a baby they seem to defend it with such black and with such conviction that sometimes you just just have to say okay fine you believe what you believe I believe what I believe and that's it and then the beautiful thing about this building this poem says the same thing to the final act and there's a conversion in religion which I hope which which I feel is really cool because even we're not supposed to tell people that you're wrong they're supposed to show the volcano says what this is the this is the work if you if you you know if it makes sense you believe it I'm gonna understand that there's criticism about it of people or Muslims who have forced people into conversion but those are people who are part of the people to freedom show well if you're like not supposed to force people and you're just supposed to tell them about it you have done your duty you know exactly and I think I've done my job here but I'm not here to preach here at all I'm not sure to convert you guys into slow anything and because I might something about the most perfect was the belief yeah I don't pray five times a day I'm only playing at this one because everybody becomes a bit more you know a big moral business hey we've got some other callers on the line so thanks for your call set preciate it thanks a lot for debating Thanks all right well cool we're gonna move on to I think it looks is that Avion in the UK let's talk about decline of civilization with Tracy and Jenna extremely disappointed with Matt Dillahunty in the APA and trends right the human right okay you wouldn't get any disagreement what you wind up getting disagreement from the two of us regarding Iran's rights and both of you are fabulous and generally I don't know where your son sits on the current controversy but like yeah it's been it's been a rollercoaster ride and I hope that all the employees working so much harassment I get the support they need to yeah I mean I can only reiterate that I have full support for the trans community yeah even though they've told us that the hosts have free reign to do whatever content they want to do when they're on the show and that you know they don't want us to feel what's the word I guess moderated you know I do want to say that I don't feel completely at ease talking about it because my views don't necessarily align with the group and I can't I feel on this topic I can't speak for right the ACA and I feel like my job I feel like my job at this desk on this show right now is to do my best to speak for the Association and I was probably Nandu you speak against it and so what I'm trying I guess to I mean I I appreciate your call but I I feel unable to express my views well I probably shouldn't say any more than I would want you're in trouble we're not in trouble yeah yeah I just don't want to make making problems so but thank you for the call a friend we agree trans rights are human rights thank you alright so moving on we're gonna go to this is Assad in Minnesota you're a Muslim who is on the brink of atheism and you have a question your honor Tracy and Jen a silo Lucy hey hello hello hello how are you good good okay you can hear me yeah they sound great thank you okay um I have a few questions but before I go into the question about Islam I was listening this show in the beginning and you were talking about the talking about abortion and and I also have a few questions so can i okay so I listened to the listen to the points or abortion and I feel you know sometimes sometimes I feel that yes a woman should have a woman should have option two if they want to but my question is about about the the arguments so so what I'm trying to say is you could have a valid something could be valid but you could make bad argument for it correct yes sir okay yeah okay that's what that's the what I'm not so only when I hear you talk I you know try to process and and for example you again you say the say if the if if like for example in show this so it says you said if they could force you not to have abortion they could also force you to have abortion right yes but the I'm not again for or against abortion but you could apply it for any law so if you because you could say if they could force you not to commit murder they could also force you to commit murder correct well that's not exactly the same because you're not talking about control of your own body and well you and there is there is actually precedent there is actually a precedent the government can force people to kill people if they draft you into the army and send you to the battlefield you be forced to kill people now defining that as murder you know international law doesn't define that as murder but you could be forced to take another life I think it's more along the lines I mean this is like a health decision right right you know the government if the government has if the government decides for you that you're not allowed you have like a medically safe procedure that actually protects you from potential harm it's almost like if the government banned vaccines mm-hmm right and it's it's like they there's a big argument now about whether they can force people to have their children vaccinated like should we make people have their kids vaccinated should we leave that to the parents I think if the government were to say we're going to ban vaccines people would probably by and large crap themselves Yeah right because it's just like wait what but there are some people that would push for that so I think what Jen is saying is that when you're talking about like a like a bodily autonomy thing when they're saying you don't have bodily autonomy they're saying they control your body yeah okay I totally understand and like I said I I do think you know it is I I don't think women if they want to should have the option but I'm just talking about the argument because I think this is a such case like for you know the like a baby I mean this is such a case you can't really it's hard to explain it how to explain it with other examples I think what they're removing your choice I think is the is the thing there's a choice involved here over that people expect with medical decisions right so there's a there's a capacity there's a medical procedure that is safe and effective and so the question becomes can I can I make this option or can I can I not avail myself of this option and what they're saying is the option is available but you can't have it and yeah I guess it's like but if they're going you're kind of saying like well if they're gonna ban drugs you know could they force you to take drugs and I'm kind of saying you know I guess they could technically right I mean right I'm only talking about that argument I mean I'm saying if I were to give this argument to someone they could you know like they could say the same that okay then if you ban martyr then you could also force someone to commit murder then why you not talk about the law banning murder right so another thing that the what if I give this argument then it says yeah or me they can break it you know well but we actually have examples of what happens when the government intrudes on one of the most personal decisions people will ever make and that is whether and how many children to have so in I guess the 80s and maybe into the 90s Romania had a policy where they wanted people to have at least five kids so abortion was unavailable you couldn't get one you had to have five kids and what we had was a crisis where all these kids were in these remaining orphanages and for the longest time if you wanted a white European kid you know if you had the money you could get one from Romania well a lot of these kids came out of these orphanages and they had really severe psychological issues and failure to thrive which is you know a big medical issue and it was because in these orphanages there were so many kids that the caregivers didn't even have time to hold the children and what we found out are just partly as a result of some of this is that human infants really all primate infants require close contact with a caregiver if you don't have that they don't develop normally and so a lot of the kids that were adopted from these orphanages had really severe psychological issues with failing to to bond with caregivers and stuff like that and it wasn't anything that they did wrong right it was just a product of the environment that they experienced his early right and then on the other end of the spectrum you had like China with the one child exactly right where they had all kinds of weird you know horror stories coming out of there about coerced abortions and things like that or late you know late term course abortions and the question is really should and yes a government can go either way it can make you have kids it can it can stop you from having kids it can but the question is do we want the government to make your reproductive decisions for you well either way all right you're very right but also when I you know if I talk to someone they say that if if you look at from that view then is it is wrong a government but here government is trying to protect a baby right but they they could just as easily say we're gonna look out for our population you know overpopulating and so we're going to control for that so what I'm what I'm pointing out is that a reproductive decision is like has to do with bodily autonomy right I understand the example that you're making and I think I even understand the problem that you're having with it which is basically it's kind of like the argument that I will say sometimes where it's just like somebody will say well if you don't feud if you outlaw a thing it doesn't you know it doesn't really stop it like I mean that with abortion and I kind of joked about how it didn't stop it with drugs you know and it wouldn't stop it with murder right so what you're basically saying well hey Tracy if you're gonna use that argument why outlaw murder cuz it's not going to stop it people are still yes yes right yes but the difference is the is the question of do we want me to go out and hurt other people versus do we want me to be able to make a decision about my own body not your body but my own body right and so do does the government tell me whether I can have a child or not I do accept that the government should be able to tell me not to go out and kill other citizens but I don't accept that they should be telling anybody to have or not have babies right that I don't think that they should be declining birth control from people like not even people access to birth control I don't think that they should be limiting all full options right for people to have it's one thing to tell somebody and this is why the issue with drugs is such a controversial issue right because there's a that's the whole argument is this is something I'm doing to myself right and usually what happens is people will say but you get all messed up and then you go out and you do things and you're not responsible right because you're not your head's not there and so then we have this issue of well we already have problems with like alcohol consumption and and misuse and abuse and and irresponsible behavior that ends up hurting other people and if you if you you know release other drugs you're gonna exacerbate this problem because there's gonna be a whole slew of these things to choose from there's arguments to be made I understand people that are afraid of it being elite you know legalized and I also understand you know the arguments for legalizing and a lot of it comes down to this idea of this is my body right my body and when you're talking about a reproductive decision this this is literally do we want the government to control reproduction do we want the government to control murder yeah do we want the government to tell you how many kids you can have or how many kids you have to have or how many you can't have I even even though I'm like a big proponent of bringing down population you know in general I'm not even there right I'm not at the point where I want the government making that decision for you well and I think sorry go ahead no if you look worldwide the countries that have the best outcomes in terms of quality of life are the countries where women are allowed to make those decisions right absolutely absolutely but what I'm trying to say is that when I think about it this is such a special case it's like you can like you can't explain it with another example for in this case by exercising your rights your reproductive right you could also harm another baby or person right see right because it's a best tip yeah the best way you don't have it in any other situation you know they're separate like killing somebody or making your own toys separate but you could do it but that's the point behind the whole bodily autonomy our argument and that is that even if you will die without the use of my body it doesn't mean that I'm obligated to let you use my body okay again this was not my the top right it's okay everyone another so for this you know like this idea that you know you can't divorce me you can't force me to you know give you anything for you to survive okay then then the mother and father are like if I have children and I don't feed them then the the you know I get in trouble for it yes from the police because then why okay because you're not required to use your body in order to care for your children and these are autonomous children they're not dependent on your body to survive so you are required to provide reasonable care for them and if you don't want to care for them you can give them to someone else who will take care of them okay you're okay no law required so yeah you become obligated to that child when you consent to boot to be the parent right right and I'm gonna I'm not I'm gonna say that there's a lot of theoretical here because I know our laws are not perfect around you know yeah Aaron T but the point is when when a woman finds out she's pregnant she then has to make that decision whether she's consenting to this or not right you can't really make a decision about whether or not you want to give somebody blood tissue organs like use of your body unless unless it arises as a situation right so unless somebody comes to you and says hey I need a kidney you don't really have to stop and think about whether you'll lend this person a kidney it's you know I mean I guess you could but the point is you're you have to consent before you're obligated as a parent and when and you have to consent before you're obligated I believe you have to consent before you're obligated to gestate and birth a child and that consent can only happen when you have the situation where you're confronted with it and you say whoa do I want to do I want to proceed with this or not am I on board with this because you've got a person who's kind of getting a surprise right it's like surprised there's a person using your body are you okay allowing this or you let this go on or not and at that point she has to make a decision but she's she hasn't actually quote been asked yet right until she finds out that she's that she's got a pregnancy so if somebody wants to somebody has sex for to become pregnant knowing I want to live then you you think they can't have abortion no I would say that it depends on what's going on with them you know I mean not not it depends on what's going on with them if they can or not but what you're basically describing is a situation that would be really weird right like so I'm trying to have a baby then I get pregnant then I want to abort it that's does that happen I guess like a yes yes later because you know somebody's say that you know you're probably not ready or you know but at the time she thought yes she's already yeah you can change mind you can withdraw from things you know and and I frankly you know although it gets into other like I said legal messy issues I personally would be okay with somebody handing off their kid and get an assigning paternal or maternal rights to a child like parenting rights to somebody else at any age like I would so much rather that somebody is raising that right at once to then somebody that feels like they can't deal with it at whatever age it is okay I know this is a very I mean it's one topic you could talk you know I'll pull so we are at the top of the hour so we need to good right right I want to talk about so so I grew up my parents are mostly my everybody in on my family Muslim and when I read the book the Quran and the many authentic hadith I have a lot of problems and when I asked when I talk about these problems in a bit you know give me explanation and sometimes is its it feels ok sometimes you know I I it doesn't so in your show lot of times people come in and and they they tell their argument and you tell them you know what is wrong okay so in for me I will just tell him what my friends or you know the people in my community when I talk to them they say you tell me what is wrong okay oh the adamant right so I know from the you know what hadith is that Hadees Rico Hadees yes it's the okay so there are you know various like degree of authentication some of the most authentic hadith they're collected in the Bukhari Muslim now in the bukhari hadith prophet muhammad's wife Aisha she said that the Prophet married her when she was six and say babe they have sex when she was at nine and so I have a problem because I think Prophet Muhammad is a example for for everybody for all time not for just not for just when he was alive for all time until the end of the world but I have problem with people Marion or having sex with nine-year-old and so when I asked about it they say that in the when he was alive it was very it was everybody did it everybody did and-and-and-and and God asked him to do it because because she was very smart and she this is this way she lived the longer life with the Prophet and could see what he was doing and could the right I mean could they narrate all the things he said so there's a there's a reason for it my question does it make him up like a pedophile for marrying a girl child I mean she's she's pre-puberty Niva at the age that you're giving for the sexual intercourse that would be a pre prepubescent child right like you're not even talking about somebody that's that's likely gone through puberty at that point yeah that's literally a child in in any sense of the word it's not even to a point where it's arguable like there's not even at that point secondary sexual custard characteristics or right there's no adult features right I mean this is a this is a nine year old and I I don't know how to justify that I'm sorry that somebody put a bunch of people in a situation where they feel like they have to yeah and I think the fact that you understand that there's a problem there is probably pretty indicative of the fact that you understand that there's a problem there right I mean you get it yes actually I've heard from many other here in America that there's that this is they say if it even is in the authentic book but do they say is the H is not authentic the age could be 26 but they said only where only where the is a problem like people will think it's bad yeah 9 so if you go other places where it's okay then you don't say there is not the nine because they they I mean I'm gonna be honest with you right if I had if I had my druthers if people are going to believe this one way or the other and I couldn't change that I would so much rather be dealing with Muslims who say I think it's wrong about the nine-year-old thing I think she was more like inter mid-20s I'd be way cooler with those Muslims than the Muslims who were like no man it says she's nine so it's cool yeah like that's that would be the ones that kind of freaked me out so do you think it making yeah that's kind of the definition it is yeah that's pedophilia I mean unless you're one of the the people saying she was 26 who yeah you know I'd go with them like if you're if you're having you know questions and issues you pretty much got a choice where you're gonna be supporting pedophilia or you're going to go with it's a mistake and I think I would tend toward it's a mistake yeah okay actually know where it says it's 26 or 19 they say if you look at the hair that they look at here like there yeah and the things and they say it could but they're a straight in the Hadees it actually says that I you know she was six and she was nine one right marriage was crucified it actually said but the 20-city doesn't say so I problem for me is if he is the example for mankind for all time then I cannot have a pedophile for example good for you yeah exactly good for you I have another one the slavery in the in the Prophet Muhammad had the slaves and he said again these are all from all from quran and hadees authentic hadith I read and and so he had he received the girls as sex slaves as a gift from the ruler of Egypt answer and also gave a sex slave to his to his son-in-law is a daughter's husband but when when I say this why this is not right and then my friends tell me that in that time if they didn't have a slave then they will not have a job and and they also I say okay then why have a sex with them and they say they also have the sexual need so you and your like you know making sure that they're not you know sexually bored yeah okay it's a good thing or for Islam it's a so so what do you think about it I even have I think I guess why not make them free and allow them to sell themselves sexually if they want to yeah okay yes that's why say but they say that it's it was vomit one to band slave but the slavery but but because the economy was dependent on it he Mahmud the also sold I mean we have an economy at one point that was kind of dependent on slavery to here in the US but we took care of that it wasn't pretty but you would not get them you will not like you not say that for him at that time I was okay no no I think there's a thing right where where people say oh it was okay back then and it's not okay now and all that really means is that there were some people that were cool with it back then generally it's the people that weren't on the crap end of the stick I was gonna say it wasn't this like I said we're cool with it the this usually aren't okay with it except maybe in relativistic terms like maybe I'm a slave that's in a much better position than another slave and so I feel okay in that position because it's relative but in general I think I mean I wouldn't like being a slave and I would feel weird like owning human beings as property because it kind of denies them their humanity right I mean isn't there anything about equality in the Quran for for Muslim yes but you can have is called animal the limit is when you when you are at war and you defeat the the your your the people you were fighting and then you can take their property your children and the woman as as as a loot at the world Lewton then you can keep them you can you know sell actually there is one thing that kind of ties with the the board of control I think is either as you know the birth control is not permitted but in one war after one war when the the the followers of Mohammed attack the tried most attic and then they big the they beat them determining they defeated them and the kill them kill the man and the woman and so they were having sex with them but they have a question they had a question about though if you can ejaculate inside them because if they get the pregnant then they the they do reduce the value for selling so they came to my mom I stayed that's interesting so it's incentive for birth control that your slaves are worthless if you get them pregnant it's so amazing to me like these these things that religious folks come up with like it's so interesting and ok sometimes I'm like I would have never thought of that right like took more imagination than idea to come up with that explanation and I I actually appreciate your call because it's so interesting to hear you kind of lay this out I wish we had another hour to hear you talk about these apologetics that you are familiar with I understand you're not advocating for it you're just sort of saying hey these are the things I have problems with and they always give me explain explanation and you know and they think it's it's okay explanation but I mean don't you when you hear that don't you just kind of think yeah but human beings aren't property like they have agency and lives and they have to be like don't you think that when you see another person you respect kind of the fact that there are human being like you're a human being and that you see that kind of you know equality of being between you and them right you mean that's why I hide the problems yeah yeah no I totally get it and I'm saying that that's kind of oh that's something that some religions actually deal with right so in in Christianity despite the history of slavery and stuff there's still this golden rule and it may not be perfect but the concepts behind these types of rules are all about recognizing the humanity in the other right so when it says do unto others as you would have them do unto you there's this underlying narrative that says recognize this person as a person and when you hear these other rules that are similar to that like don't do things to people that you wouldn't want done to you it's the same tight it's just trying to say see yourself in some way in this in this other person be able to see yourself in this person and we do have there's there science behind this right like infants that recognize human faces before they recognize other types of faces there's like other studies that show that animals you know you don't even need a study really to show that an animal recognizes members of its own species many times the more social it is right like for example animals wouldn't be wouldn't know which other animals to mate with for example you're like oh that would a bear know to mate you another bear if we couldn't recognize other bears that's like you know yeah they're as the the thing that is like them you can call it what you want and I'm not saying that I speak for how a bear does it or views it but there is this thing that to me these religions and these philosophies and these laws are kind of stating a thing that that is a that is a it's descriptive not prescriptive right they sound like they're being prescriptive and they're put forward like that like God tells you to you know treat everybody like you would be treated but really what's happening is the religion is looking at it and saying I recognize that this happens between people and what is this this is some recognition of ourselves in others and that's the thing that's being acknowledged and that's how we're a social species and I think that's how that's that's to me when you start to undermine the person's humanity that's how atrocities happen right when you start saying that a human being is an object or a human being is less human than its it's a recipe for some danger yeah and I would argue that that sort of dehumanization process is essential to committing atrocities against other people or having slaves yeah exactly which I consider one of the worst atrocities throughout human history because you can't basically in order to do that to another human being you have to overcome our evolutionary history as social animals and that empathy that we have for other human beings okay yes I could lots of things and you know I know it's a limited call so I will just say one thing okay and well I mean the reason I call is because like I said I just wanted to see the same explained explanation how you take it and you know about the slavery people my friends say that the Prophet Muhammad wanted to get rid of slavery but then I said then you know why you yourself have slaves you didn't have have slaves right okay so my I see another person from Pakistan brother Saad I just want to say one thing about one thing he said and then I will just go so he said about the Quran being unchanged and it's the exact words of God but there are a few versions of Quran actually right now the number okay in Quran number of verses in Quran there is the discrepancy some say it is six thousand six hundred thousand six hundred and sixty-six some six thousand two hundred and the people that think one bare Quran is the right Quran is unchanged they think it is an unchanging they're not really mostly with Christians I was wondering if it wasn't the Christians that were saying there was 6666 who started that rumor yeah all right oh just one thing at the the there was the hadees and and that where the the prophets wife Aisha described that the obverse came to her Muhammad and here they had written down and the inner bark of a tree and and when they were looking God came and ate it the supporters and so that Boris is missing from the Quran yes so it is not the complete for a fee that Hadees is true you know what though if I was if I was a God and I was writing a book and I sent a verse to a nine year old and they wrote it down and I was just like yeah that's crap I would probably send a go to go yet like I mean how many ways can you edit right yeah like you're the God just send a goat to eat it cuz I would think that if you're a god and you didn't want to go to eat it you'd be like oh man something needs to happen to that goat before Yeah right like have a heart attack goat right or something send another sacrifice to you because they were because you were a woman you did like it what was in the words because in Islam if you drink or anyone is drinking the breast milk from woman you cannot to marry and so that if you have somebody in your house that is not a muharram is somebody cannot marry if it's not Muharram and wants to be in the house then you could defeat that person the breast milk and then the the a mother-son relationship is created so now it is okay for the person to stay in the house so it's like women are tricking the guy into drinking breast milk so he could stay because he's like her son now not clicking you it's the that's how they do it on purpose like everybody knows on purpose yes the word the slave was a little and then when the slave became an adult and the display the owner went to Prophet Muhammad said what this is adult now and he still stay in my house but in my house I had my wife and he is not my Ronnie's from outside what do I do so mom the Prophet Muhammad said okay have the slave drink is a breast milk and so now that guy can be around your wife now and there's no threat that's the theater you'll be like that's my mom I can't I can't do anything to her now yeah wow that is trippy that is trippy good thank you very much for your time I appreciate a thank you it was a very interesting Wow I could listen to those stories all day yeah I mean seriously this is like I could read a book of this that was that was pretty interesting alright and we're Rapp with Mitch in Ohio about how to talk to religion to other people you're all my Tracy and Jen hello hey hello you sound good Spencer surprised I know you guys are probably hungry so I'm not gonna take much of your time so yeah the Chinese food is here so be quick oh there's Chinese yeah all right so what's up Mitch Mitch I don't know I have this pause for atheist to like be scared of religious people because I don't know I used to be religious myself but what do you mean be scared of religious people like it like scared in what context well you know when I come on I was an atheist people like still tell like I'm going to hell or whatever uh-huh I'm scared to get that response do you believe in hell yeah you do No oh no no okay so so the fear is just about the condemnation that you'd be getting ya know is that about right yeah okay well I mean that's abusive I mean if you think about it in those terms it might be a little easier to deal with it I mean people people put up with a lot of crap from like friends and family when they come out as atheists and I guess what I'm gonna do is give you permission and not put up with that crap I mean it's all it sounds like you're having you're having like a you're clearly invested in this right so I'm I mean you know you kind of have to think in terms if you can think in terms of this in a less in a more objective way like think about it and in terms of what if this was someone else and not you right let's think for example that your friend comes to you and they're like man I told my parents that I don't believe in this religion and their response was that they think I deserve to be tortured forever and that I deserve to die I mean what would you think about that that's pretty stupid what would you tell your friend though it's hard to say I mean I've had to discussion with them once and I don't know I mean what would you think about your friends or your friend's parents like what does that say about them and what they just said to him like what would you tell him man you're making me think about this well sometimes I felt like I say sometimes if you feel really like it's real close to home for you because you're thinking of your own situation sometimes it really helps to think like what if what if the person who was telling you this was like 13 right and they went to their parents and they said you know I don't know if I believe this or not I don't think I'm I don't think I believe it and the mother and father are like you deserve to die you deserve to like be tortured forever for that what would you think about those parents and what would you tell that child well they're kind of amoral I guess oh yeah yeah and what are you told the kid only telling your child that they're gonna burn in hell is kind of an immoral thing to say yes right it's horrible and when we think about it and it's in our own context it's sometimes hard to to see all the aspects of it when you look at it and you say what if I saw somebody doing this to somebody else right so sometimes if you're in a situation where you're being abused you kind of look at it like it's not that bad it's not a betrayal but when you see somebody abusing your friend you get really defensive right and you're just like wait a minute wait did what did they just say to you what did they just do to you like I know I personally sometimes take a lot more crap then I am comfortable watching somebody take like I'll see somebody else and I'll just be like no no no you know and I see myself and it's like Walt and we kind of all do that right so I mean a lot of us do it and so for you you're basically in this thing and you're looking at it from this very personal perspective and what I'm trying to do is say get your head out there and think about it in terms of what if it was someone else and what would you feel and what would you think and what would you see in that case yeah I mean I don't know I don't know it seems like religion uses it that's a fear to get people to believe it yes sure it does yes it's it's a psychological manipulation tool yeah and let me tell you there your fears are not unfounded when it comes to will they throw this at me yeah right I mean yeah they might and I've known people who are atheist whose families come from authoritarian hellfire religions who after they don't know when I came out when I came out as an atheist to my father he said I'm getting like he's filling my head up with those lies and I'm like really that that's his indoctrination at work um can I ask him are you do you live independently or do you live with your parents I still look my parents unfortunately okay okay thanks a little tougher yeah that is tough so being being 23 years old and trying to get out the house I understand people who have situations so your um but I guess my so my question is you're living with them and I think it sounds like you're kind of saying things could get more tense if you come out to them is that probably a correct thing to say or not yeah well I think they already know what I am so are they like hammering you over this or you catching flack already no they're pretty I guess first when I came out they were kind of mad about it but then they got over it I guess okay so at this point what's the impetus to push this again I don't know it is it possible to not push it again or do you feel some is there something motivating you to want to have this conversation with them again I don't know it kind of interests me I guess right but there might be better people to talk to about it if yeah just an interesting thing to discuss then the two people who hold really really different views and who will condemn you and that you have to live with pain just a thought so maybe is there may be a secular group near you like what or I don't want a little bomb at Ohio right now okay so then maybe you were maybe your outreach is gonna be more of an online thing yeah right if so if you're not near any cities if you can't like get to any kind of metropolis you might want to reach out to the net and find the next closest city reach out to that group that would be like the nearest humanists secular atheist like group that's in that area and kind of let them know that you you have to have someone to talk to and just be like what can you help me out because I've really got to have someone to talk to yeah if there's online atheist forums that would also be a good thing right for you to find a place where you can actually exchange with other atheists on this because it sounds like what you need is like a place to vent I mean it sounds like you're looking at five I went onto the Atheist experience shows because you know oh that's going outlet I got well I think you need something more yeah what's the like more solid right yeah then calling this show not to say then you're not welcome to call the show I'm just saying that it sounds like those pretty at times don't yeah but you need you need more available support right forums are a better yeah method I have not been to anything storm and so like yeah a little loss to offer one but yeah I'll tell you what there's um this sounds like a blog people you know question we have a blog that's at let me just find it I think it's um let me find free thought blogs here so our blog is long yeah it's at free thought blogs com /a XP now when you first post if you haven't posted before your comment needs to be moderated okay so you will need to go in moderate and I mean I will need to moderate or somebody needs to moderate so you'll post a comment it won't show up immediately it doesn't mean that it's not showing up it means that somebody has to go and release it and it might take a day or two for someone to do that but even even if you don't post I'm gonna do a shout out to the folks of the blog and just say under this show thread for today's show if you have forums that you can vouch for that are like atheist forums that would be a good support for Mitch here go ahead and put those links in like you'd like feel free to pimp those forums yeah because he needs some real interaction here and he needs somebody that he can talk to so that he doesn't start kidding into it with his parents while he's living in their house and they're being really a probably we've got into it once and it wasn't pretty yeah you don't need that you don't need that every time you feel like an urge to talk about who you are and in Mitch the fact that they are not pushing this anymore maybe that they just don't want to talk about it anymore and that may be their their only way of letting you know they value their relationship with you more than they value their religion so you know it's a good thing I guess yeah that's the optimist way to look at it yeah yeah why not write like sure and yeah so we'll get we'll try to get you some forums at those links like I said people hit the blog's you can help this person let's see some help and get him some links and in the meantime Mitch feel free to go to the blog and just say hey this is Mitch I was the caller on the show looking for forums I live in Ohio well I bought it I called him before okay way back when you talked about sleep paralysis but that was way back when okay that's fine okay I think that's the best we can do because I've got nothing as a resource but I'm sure there are resources and so I've basically put the call out for people to get you resource links and so I would say visit the blog give it you know and in post if you want to you I'll check and make sure that you get your comment through and that's hopefully we can find somebody that can get just hooked up with a with a group of people online that can help you out with giving you an interesting area to talk about your views and who you are because we all need a space to talk about who we are where we're not addressing people who oppress and you know and attack us and tell us things that are really negative and crappy about ourselves we like to have a place where we can go and feel welcome and you know safe all right I'll enter your Chinese food thank ya and again I let you go Mitch but just two people out there it's we're on caning Lane it's the freethought library feel free to come on down apparently it's Chinese tonight which I'm not you know can't complain about that and so come on down thanks to the audience thanks to my co-host Jenn yeah thank you to the people out there on the internet thanks to the folks behind the screen all right like our production folks all right and with that we will see you you know next time same bat-channel all right

Posted by Lewis Heart

This article has 20 comments

  1. Rob is not a troll or he is a very dedicated one. He has been calling to Talk Heathen and annoying the living hell out of the hosts and everyone involved.

    Reply
  2. A baby born after 28 weeks of gestation has >90% chance of surviving. How would not be able to feel pain. Atheists make good arguments regarding religion but on certain issues like race, gender and abortion they are just as ideological as some of their theist callers.

    Reply
  3. State already controls you force you to have vaccination, go to school, pay taxes, buy health care, fluoride in water or various other shit we never asked for. Get rid of 99 percent of the government should be consistently out of our life. The only problem is the inconsistently in your arguments for instant men should pay for women's health services via insurance, government wealthfare extra yet now suddenly you don't want state in charge when it violates your rights when you democrats never seem to care about state involved in schools, Obama care, socialism, guns now when concervatives wield the evil state you speak out.

    Reply
  4. Islam is the only religion my friends if u don’t believe in me reply in my comment and I’ll be giving u more and more proof every minute

    Reply
  5. There is a biblical way of having an abortion. A method that is not only approved by God, it was invented by him. He describes it himself in the book of Numbers (5:11-31). It's all part of God's wondrous Law of Jealousies. God's magical abortion procedure. A priest, some bitter water, and a wife that you think might have been unfaithful. Priceless. So if God has his own abortion procedure, abortion can't be wrong, right?

    Reply
  6. The God of Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

    And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. — Leviticus 27:6

    Reply
  7. These women are brilliant. Their logic, way of stating their views, and their command of language is phenomenal. They don't just say words, they always find the best way to say the words. It's always a treat listening to the Tracie and Jen duo

    Reply
  8. 58:00 ..so you fast because some people can't afford food? Instead of you fasting,give those people food you idiot.

    "hey buddy,I can see that you are starving. Don't worry,I will help you by not eating for a while…"
    "buddy?…..buddy?…. you starved to death! You ungrateful little shit!"

    Reply
  9. I'm not convinced that Rob is a feminist…..He's either a troll deliberately trying to be inflammatory or a moron. Or both.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure he's the "Oh yes there is" guy, with the creepy laugh. Who called under a different name.

    Reply
  10. 16:15 these politicians that voted yes to these abortion laws, they took part in bring that child to this world. They refused to provide financial or emotional support. They are nothing but dead-beat politicians. I see no difference between them and a dad who does not pay child support.

    Reply
  11. I hope you guys realize that what you're doing isn't only bound to change USA but much of the world, too. Keep it up.

    Reply

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